Disc brakes banned from French sportives including L'Etape du Tour

WolfieSmith wrote:

On the one hand it does seem a bit reactionary. 

On the other I can't help feeling a little schardenfreude for all the disc brake adopters who have been boring my arse off for the past year about how soon 'everyone will have them.' 

As I've said a couple of times on this site:

1. The benefits are marginal even in the wet. I either feather brake earlier or don't ride in the wet. Simples!  If a car pulls out in front of me I'm sliding out - disk brakes or no disk brakes. 

2. They're ugly. It may well sound shallow  but when you've been riding as long as I have you tend to hone your kit down to proven classics rather than follow the herd because someone flogging kit tells you you'll be safer. Cleats. Better helmets. Indexed ergo shifters. Yes please! Disks? Nahhhhhh. I also don't want to add to my crosswind profile. 

As for being able to avoid danger in the Etape just by being careful? I wouldn't bet on it. Having done two in a row back in '09 and 10 there were crazies crashing out on the first descent and some plonker shipped his chain and took me down with him on an innocuous piece of flat. The etape tends to attract a fair few terrible cyclists and against the clock they're a hazard. 

On your first point, I personally find the benefits of discs in the wet to be significant. Perhaps other rim/pad combinations fair better, but in the wet my pads take a good second or two to clear the water off the rims before starting to bite. On a 50mph decent thats 10-20m travelled before my brakes even begin to slow me down... 

While I don't really like the feeling of applying my brakes and then waiting for something to happen, I've learnt from experience that they will eventually start to work and in most cases I will have given myself plenty of stopping distance.

Emergency stops, though, are a different matter. When a car pulls out of a side road, or something else happens up ahead, I do tend to panic that they are not going to start working in time. This usually means that I start squeezing harder and harder whilst nothing is happening, and then end up with the back wheel snaking in the air when the crud clears and the front brake finally bites. 

Ultegra/swiss stop yellow/carbon tubs is the combination that provides such excitement in the wet if you're wondering. Better than intervals for getting the HR up. 

I don't have anywhere near as many dramas on my disc equiped bike, which lets me apply as much braking force as I think the tyres can handle whenever I want; the aesthetics might not be to everyone's taste but I certainly haven't had anywhere near as many close calls in the wet on my disc bike. Riding in a group, I'm certainly less likely to mow down the rider in front if they have a mishap when I'm on my disc bike.

I'm interested to try some of the new technologies for rim brakes - some of the really aggressive (rough) braking tracks and softer pads look like they might transform rim brake performance in the wet. I wouldn't care if I had to replace the pads every x thousand km if they just worked when I needed them. I actually wonder if the migration towards discs is partly due to the abysmal braking performance of the first few generations of carbon rims, which as I've just outlined above is downright scary.

2trax wrote:

WolfieSmith wrote:

On the one hand it does seem a bit reactionary. 

On the other I can't help feeling a little schardenfreude for all the disc brake adopters who have been boring my arse off for the past year about how soon 'everyone will have them.' 

As I've said a couple of times on this site:

1. The benefits are marginal even in the wet. I either feather brake earlier or don't ride in the wet. Simples!  If a car pulls out in front of me I'm sliding out - disk brakes or no disk brakes. 

2. They're ugly. It may well sound shallow  but when you've been riding as long as I have you tend to hone your kit down to proven classics rather than follow the herd because someone flogging kit tells you you'll be safer. Cleats. Better helmets. Indexed ergo shifters. Yes please! Disks? Nahhhhhh. I also don't want to add to my crosswind profile. 

As for being able to avoid danger in the Etape just by being careful? I wouldn't bet on it. Having done two in a row back in '09 and 10 there were crazies crashing out on the first descent and some plonker shipped his chain and took me down with him on an innocuous piece of flat. The etape tends to attract a fair few terrible cyclists and against the clock they're a hazard. 

On your first point, I personally find the benefits of discs in the wet to be significant. Perhaps other rim/pad combinations fair better, but in the wet my pads take a good second or two to clear the water off the rims before starting to bite. On a 50mph decent thats 10-20m travelled before my brakes even begin to slow me down... 

While I don't really like the feeling of applying my brakes and then waiting for something to happen, I've learnt from experience that they will eventually start to work and in most cases I will have given myself plenty of stopping distance.

Emergency stops, though, are a different matter. When a car pulls out of a side road, or something else happens up ahead, I do tend to panic that they are not going to start working in time. This usually means that I start squeezing harder and harder whilst nothing is happening, and then end up with the back wheel snaking in the air when the crud clears and the front brake finally bites. 

Ultegra/swiss stop yellow/carbon tubs is the combination that provides such excitement in the wet if you're wondering. Better than intervals for getting the HR up. 

I don't have anywhere near as many dramas on my disc equiped bike, which lets me apply as much braking force as I think the tyres can handle whenever I want; the aesthetics might not be to everyone's taste but I certainly haven't had anywhere near as many close calls in the wet on my disc bike. Riding in a group, I'm certainly less likely to mow down the rider in front if they have a mishap when I'm on my disc bike.

I'm interested to try some of the new technologies for rim brakes - some of the really aggressive (rough) braking tracks and softer pads look like they might transform rim brake performance in the wet. I wouldn't care if I had to replace the pads every x thousand km if they just worked when I needed them. I actually wonder if the migration towards discs is partly due to the abysmal braking performance of the first few generations of carbon rims, which as I've just outlined above is downright scary.

I'm amazed at the quoted supposed poor performance of rim brakes, I re-discovered road bikes a few years ago and was anticipating some dreadful experiences once the rims got wet, but found in reality that my old stock veloce monoblock pads were surprisingly good in the wet and when I put some Athena holder and pads style brakes on, it was another level of excellent. Better than my mtb and hybrid on discs. The only real world issue for me is the grey slurry running off my rims, telling me that the Ally is wearing away.

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

Your last comment reflects that lack of progressive thinking which has stifled the UCI.  Riding a road bike with discs has nothing to do with competence.  It's a preference.  A preference for a year round bike, which is versatile.  Clearly for the majority of rides in the summer rim brakes are great.  They work for the pros.  There is no getting around the fact that a disc brake is fundamentally more effective in a wider range of conditions.  

I shall be seeking a refund if it does turn out that discs are banned from the Etape. 

mireland wrote:

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

 

Your last comment reflects that lack of progressive thinking which has stifled the UCI.  Riding a road bike with discs has nothing to do with competence.  It's a preference.  A preference for a year round bike, which is versatile.  Clearly for the majority of rides in the summer rim brakes are great.  They work for the pros.  There is no getting around the fact that a disc brake is fundamentally more effective in a wider range of conditions.  

I shall be seeking a refund if it does turn out that discs are banned from the Etape. 

I have been riding rim braked bikes for 20 years in all conditions, in Scotland too I might add. I've never felt the need for disc brakes as braking is as much about bike handling and riding as it is about the equipment used.

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

Plus anyone who needs a compact chainset, or a large sprocket bigger than a 23, or 2 water bottles or tyres wider than 18c or blah blah the rules etc. 

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

What do you think disc brakes give that rim brakes don't?  They're designed to be similar in braking performance to dura ace (and similar level kit) rim brakes.  Modulation is better but a ham fisted rider can get things just as wrong on rim and disc brakes.

Have you actually ridden disc brakes on a road bike or are you speaking from no experience?

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

I think the internet slang is "OTIO". Or you are (again, I think) guilty of elitist bollox based I would wager on a breathtaking lack of self awareness and a vast over estimation of your own talent.

surly_by_name wrote:

Roddders wrote:

It's one way of raising the standard of riding though. Sadly though it is the ritish riders who are generally guilty of terrible road etiquette and seem unable to ride in a bunch withouth swerving madly across the road.  If ASO are succesful of ridding the sport of the newbies that don't want to ride properly then fair play to them.  

Anyone that needs disc brakes on a road bike can't be a competant rider and shouldn't be riding events like the etape.

I think the internet slang is "OTIO". Or you are (again, I think) guilty of elitist bollox based I would wager on a breathtaking lack of self awareness and a vast over estimation of your own talent.

Probably. On the other hand, being, much less assessing oneself as being, a “competant” rider doesn’t ipso facto make someone a great thinker. And, as you point out, his confidence in his cycling ability may turn out to be as well-grounded as his confidence in his rhetorical and orthographic competence.

In any case, the French will do as the French are wont to do, just as the pros have done. I’m, of course, utterly confident that having a sprinkling of amateurs, used to hydraulic discs on their custom-built sportive machines, careen off unfamiliar mountain descents on sharp-angled thin-rimmed rim-braked loaners will do wonders for everyone's safety. 

Only events which fall under FFC affiliation.

Note it is pretty rare for such events to get by without support from the national cycling federation - it also dictates other important rules line proximity of doctors, number of ambulances, min. number of marshalls etc.

wycombewheeler wrote:

I'm assuming this only applies to events in France, and not all events run under the 'etape du tour' banner.  (like the dragon ride, which was not even an Etape event when i enterred)

MoutonDeMontagne wrote:

Nothing as yet on the Etape du Tour Rules page, nor communicated via email to those registered...

 

Pretty ludicrous decision. 

For L'Ariégeoise it is already up: http://www.cyclosport-ariegeoise.com/en/

MoutonDeMontagne wrote:

Nothing as yet on the Etape du Tour Rules page, nor communicated via email to those registered...

Until confirmation pops up, may just apply to FFC organised road races rather than amature GF's, nothing on the Etape rules page either to say you can't ride a flat-bar road bike which isn't a UCI sanctioned design... 

Actually..... http://www.letapedutour.com/us/practical-information/faq

FAQ:
"What types of bikes are allowed on L’Etape du Tour?"

"All types of FFC approved bikes are accepted, with the exception of electric bikes. Recumbent bicycles and handlebar extensions are not permitted."

Since disc brake bikes are no longer FFC approved, they're no longer on the list of bikes that are allowed.

neildmoss wrote:

MoutonDeMontagne wrote:

Nothing as yet on the Etape du Tour Rules page, nor communicated via email to those registered...

Until confirmation pops up, may just apply to FFC organised road races rather than amature GF's, nothing on the Etape rules page either to say you can't ride a flat-bar road bike which isn't a UCI sanctioned design... 

Actually..... http://www.letapedutour.com/us/practical-information/faq

FAQ:
"What types of bikes are allowed on L’Etape du Tour?"

"All types of FFC approved bikes are accepted, with the exception of electric bikes. Recumbent bicycles and handlebar extensions are not permitted."

Since disc brake bikes are no longer FFC approved, they're no longer on the list of bikes that are allowed.

 

No disagreeing with your observation, but it doesn't actually state 'FFC approved ROAD bikes'. Cross bikes are still FFC approved, and thus theoretically so are disc equipped Cross bikes. Where does the line between a disc road/gravel/cross bike sit? Therefore, unless is specifically excludes discs, like it does eletric, recumbant and tri-bars, there is a case for ambiguity... 

MoutonDeMontagne wrote:

Therefore, unless is specifically excludes discs, like it does eletric, recumbant and tri-bars, there is a case for ambiguity... 

Yep - I hope clarity comes soon, one way or the other.

steviemarco wrote:

Ban spokes... They'll chop someones fingers off, those dangerous highly tensioned pieces of stainless steel! What is the world coming to?

I would ban narrow cobbled roads

cdamian wrote:

steviemarco wrote:

Ban spokes... They'll chop someones fingers off, those dangerous highly tensioned pieces of stainless steel! What is the world coming to?

I would ban narrow cobbled roads

Might as well ban steep mountains while you're at it, nasty weather and crashes can happen up there. 'All bike races will henceforeth be conducted at a limit of 30kph on a wide open spirit level flat road with a minimum of 2m between each rider. Winners will be decided beforehand by the UCI'

In all fairness, the pro peleton, as proven at the Tour of Dubai, would still manage to crash because of someone doing something stupid that their DS told them too. Therefore, is there really any similarities between amateur events and pro races? Mst of us punters prefer leaving a gap and staying rubber side down, incase we scuff our expensive kit and the cafe won't let us in. 

StoopidUserName wrote:

Assuming carbon rims are banned already? They explode on big descents apparently...

Carbon clinchers have been banned in the past, in events in the USA.. of course using discs gets round that particular problem..

rjfrussell wrote:

If it is not a closed road event, nothing to stop to cycling the route without a number at the same time as the competitors.

nothing at all and even in closed roads thats applicable. What you get from a sportive is support of course and thats why people like them.

I am doing the Marmotte this year, no disc on my bike but if I had then the whole thing flights, accomadation etc cost over 1K I would want to use my climbing bike for it with or without disc.

The only danger with disc is a closely packed large number fast pro peloton, that is not sportives ! 

ianrobo wrote:

 

The only danger with disc is a closely packed large number fast pro peloton, that is not sportives ! 

No, but it IS continental Granfondos.