"Are we this backwards?": Disbelief at town ditching 20mph speed limit...because most motorists ignore it; Police van blocks cycle lane for 36 hours...opposite traffic warden centre; Vine's LTN dilemma; Should've gone to Specsavers + more on the live blog

I look forward to road.cc running a story about this nefarious Liberal Democrat and his anti-LTN agenda...

Nigel Garrage wrote:

As usual Vine talking complete and utter garbage

While I'm sure we all appreciate your contributions, it may be worth posting in a more conciliatory, balanced tone; for example, starting with, "I don't know what I'm talking about but...".

Nigel Garrage wrote:

As usual Vine talking complete and utter garbage - his video is of a pedestrianised zone, not an LTN.

Still not up to Socrapicyclist's standards; far too blunt and obvious.

Every time JV opens his gob, shite spews out of it. I used to like him on the radio but now he is just going out of his way to be confrontational. He's a twat.

Mary Willoughby wrote:

I'm looking forward to the mandatory implementation of speed limiters for new cars from next year.

Tell me more.

As of next year (not sure of the date), intelligent speed assist (ISA) will be need to be installed on all new cars. ISA uses either GPS or cameras to identify the speed limit. It first alerts the driver that they are exceeding the speed limit and then slows the vehicle.

ISA can (currently) be overriden or disabled completely. However, I think it is a good step in the right direction - it can currently be disabled, but the law may change in future, likewise, motor insurers might incorporate it with black box technology and charge motorists more if they regularly disable or override it.  If someone is involved in a collision where speed is a factor, and it can be shown they have disabled or overridden ISA they may suffer enjoy (slightly) less lenient sentencing.

Might be characterised as more of a vehicle design issue problem though - if your speedo goes up to 180mph and increases in equal increments then the 0-20mph section is one sixth of the visual space. Would be quite easy to arrange a speedo with unequal increments in modern vehicles, if that's not already the case.

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@Corned Beef - The problem with modern cars is that they're so refined with sound insulation and absence of vibrations, that it's difficult to do 20mph without the aid of technology (eg manual speed limiter). It's less of a problem in an enthusiasts car (eg MX5, Caterham, Elise etc). It also partly explains why I turned from being a full on motoring enthusiast into a cyclist, bikes are just way more fun than a modern, run of the mill car. Massive sensation of speed, fun in the corners and a real connection with your surroundings.

RedRocket wrote:

@Corned Beef - The problem with modern cars is that they're so refined with sound insulation and absence of vibrations, that it's difficult to do 20mph without the aid of technology (eg manual speed limiter). It's less of a problem in an enthusiasts car (eg MX5, Caterham, Elise etc). It also partly explains why I turned from being a full on motoring enthusiast into a cyclist, bikes are just way more fun than a modern, run of the mill car. Massive sensation of speed, fun in the corners and a real connection with your surroundings.

Yep - agreed. Years ago, I bought a Mazda RX-8 and they threw in a day's driving experience with it. Half a day on the track, and half a day road driving skills. The latter half was pretty good on safety issues. They made the point about how much less sensation of speed you get in today's (and this was mid-2000s) cars compared with the past. Their advice - drive in a low gear.

Steve K wrote:

... Their advice - drive in a low gear.

Interesting, as modern cars frequently suggest the driver should use a higher gear, to the point where the engine can struggle to maintain speed going uphill.

Compact Corned Beef wrote:

Might be characterised as more of a vehicle design issue problem though - if your speedo goes up to 180mph and increases in equal increments then the 0-20mph section is one sixth of the visual space. Would be quite easy to arrange a speedo with unequal increments in modern vehicles, if that's not already the case.

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Cracking good idea! Why should a speedometer read in a linear manner? For road safety slow speeds are far more important to observe so should be easier to read. Conversely, high speeds (>70mph) are pretty useless. In most locations and circumstances such speeds are illegal and the presence of precise scaling only serves to encourage boy racers.

PS, just Googled non-linear speedometer. Apparently they are a thing with VW!

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/149071-about-non-linear-s...

All VW group cars! My Skoda has one, it uses smaller increments up to 80mph (I assume it's actually up to 130km/h for continental limits), then halves them above that. 

I find it a doddle, drive with the aim af creating a queue. That's you doing 20.  And oh so satisfying.

definitely.  I come to a 20mph zone, set my speed limiter to 20mph and revel in the number of frustrated cars that sit behind me.

However, more alarmingly there are a growing number of cars that will overtake me when I do this.... even outside schools

I do it in pretty much all 30s too

RedRocket wrote:

Partially agree with the limit being revised. It's difficult not to spend a fair amount of time looking at the speedometer in a 20mph zone.

But not at 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70?

RedRocket wrote:

Partially agree with the limit being revised. It's difficult not to spend a fair amount of time looking at the speedometer in a 20mph zone.

It certainly is if you're not used to doing it.  However, if you practise driving within the limits, it becomes easier to know the sound of the engine and to know when you are exceeding the limit.

It also helps to be in a lower gear rather than a 'cruising gear' so the engine tone is slightly more noticeable. In a 20mph zone, that won't make a significant dent in economy, since you will be slowing for junctions on a regular basis anyway.  But it will both allow the driver to be more conscious of speed, and help more reactive slowing from engine braking.  And it won't be for long, because people don't - or shouldn't - be driving in a 20mph zone for extended periods of time normally.  If they are, they should be walking or cycling or picking a different route.

If you don't know how to drive at 20 mph safely, you really should not be driving.  It's not a justification, excuse, or even a reasonable explanation.

Doesn't the constant beeping from the sat nav give you a clue?

Bungle_52 wrote:

Doesn't the constant beeping from the sat nav give you a clue?

This reminds me of the after-dinner talk from an air traffic controller and former pilot, "What Goes Up Might Come Down" (David Gunson... do your own search).  

"In the cockpit there are lots of red warning lights which flash and a klaxon which sounds to indicate that we have over-cooked.
And we will switch those off!
There's nothing more disconcerting when you're panicking than to have red lights and a klaxon going off."

Slightly different reason in a car leading to the same thing.  When you don't give a [beep], there's no reason why your equipment should either!  So we will switch that off!

RedRocket wrote:

Partially agree with the limit being revised. It's difficult not to spend a fair amount of time looking at the speedometer in a 20mph zone. I would rather a 30 zone but able to keep better eyes on the road.

Which does nothing to address why the 20mph limit in the first place, which is that hitting a pedestrian at 20 is significantly less likely to be fatal. 

Also ... cruise control is great for maintaining a speed below the limit without having to constantly check the speedo. 

Jetmans Dad wrote:

RedRocket wrote:

Partially agree with the limit being revised. It's difficult not to spend a fair amount of time looking at the speedometer in a 20mph zone. I would rather a 30 zone but able to keep better eyes on the road.

Which does nothing to address why the 20mph limit in the first place, which is that hitting a pedestrian at 20 is significantly less likely to be fatal. 

Also ... cruise control is great for maintaining a speed below the limit without having to constantly check the speedo. 

My car's cruise control doesn't work below about 27 mph.  Outside of 20 limits it great, I drive with my foot over the brake pedal most of the time - if I leave sufficient space, I can generally adjust my speed if necessary just using the cruise control buttons on the steering column. But even with it being a hybrid and generally in electric mode at 20mph, it really isn't difficult to maintain 20mph - it just takes practice, and most drivers are not at all practiced at obeying 20mph limits.