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Driver slams police’s “disgusting” failure to prosecute cyclist who collided with her car – and broke his leg; Annemiek van Vleuten’s Sonic the Hedgehog bottle missing tribute at the Vuelta; Cycle to Vote day + more on the live blog

It’s Thursday and Ryan Mallon’s back with all the latest news, views, and nonsense from the cycling world. Once he remembers how the live blog works, that is…

SUMMARY

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04 May 2023, 08:09
Angry driver - image cc licensed by Jon Collier on Flickr.jpg
Driver complains to local paper over police’s “disgusting” failure to prosecute cyclist who collided with her car – and broke his leg

Since it’s my first live blog shift in over a week (it’s great to be back…), I thought I’d start the morning by flicking through the latest cycling (or anti-cycling?) stories filling up the pages of this week’s local newspapers, and this complaint to the Swindon Advertiser certainly caught my attention…

The story centres around a collision between a motorist and a cyclist on a busy major roundabout, which left the rider with a broken leg. Why do we know this? Because just under four months after the collision, the motorist has contacted the Advertiser to complain about the police’s “shocking” failure to prosecute the cyclist for damaging her car.

According to the driver, the collision happened on the Wiltshire town’s Gablecross roundabout on 9 January, when she claims the cyclist hit the side of her vehicle.

Gablecross junction, Swindon (Swindon Borough Council)

“I heard the most horrendous noise and felt a bang on the passenger side of my car and I was horrified at the time,” she told the Advertiser.

“I was breathalysed and it showed nothing, but the police didn’t take a statement off of me at all and purely went from the dash cam footage.

“It is disgusting as the cyclist was riding illegally with no lights on at all.”

Wiltshire Police, who did not take action against either party, also confirmed that the 19-year-old cyclist involved in the crash suffered a serious leg injury.

Our source doesn’t come across as entirely sympathetic with regards to the cyclist’s injuries, telling the Advertiser that she had to fork out £700 to pay for the damage to her car, in order to protect her insurance policy’s no claims bonus.

“I want awareness to be put out there that this sort of thing can occur,” she added.

“I’m concerned that the people who use bikes for work don’t spend money on protective clothing and lights. He wasn’t even wearing a helmet, dark clothing, it is reckless.

“I’m upset and I’m more wary of driving now and it’s something that could have been totally avoided.

“The police response is absolutely shocking and no prosecution has happened, and instead, I’ve had to fork out for my own car’s insurance. I have found the whole experience harrowing.”

 

 

 

 

04 May 2023, 16:29
“I wonder why she hasn’t availed herself of this excellent service and chosen to go whining to the newspapers instead?”

On the subject of this morning’s local newspaper botherer:

Live blog comments 4 May 2023

Meanwhile, road.cc reader HoldingOn made an astute observation concerning the driver’s criticism of the injured cyclist for not wearing a helmet:

Live blog comments 4 May 2023 2

Good point.

And no, I’m not acknowledging the Star Wars references in the comments, no matter what day it is…

04 May 2023, 16:01
gwr main
The good, the bad, and the faffing about: Your experience taking bikes on trains

We asked for your experiences taking bikes on trains, and you duly delivered (albeit without much storage space on the journey).

Here are some of your thoughts on taking bikes on trains in the UK:

Awavey was one of our more positive readers, concluding that “Greater Anglia is always pretty good, only know a few times when reserved spaces meant friends had to wait for the next train. I've still not tried with any of the new trains so don't know what they're like yet, (or seen any cyclists on board them either) though I suspect the Dunwich Dynamo riders would disagree.”

Global Nomad said they “occasionally had to use trains to return into London after mechanicals out in the countryside – never had a problem when out of rush hour. Buy ticket, take bike on local train.

“Only problem was when the trains were cancelled and the replacement bus service refused to let me on the bus. Ended up struggling to another station on a different line.”

Secret_squirrel, meanwhile, reckoned editor Jack’s attempt to store his bike was a “bit naff”.

They continued: “Absolutely no problem getting that bike hung properly. Are they a bit crap and sub-optimal, absolutely, but not for someone whose fit enough to ride a decent graveller.  Those tyres are narrow enough to fit as well. Just laziness IMO.”

However, Dnnnnn replied: “Pretty sure you couldn't hang that bike on the new(ish) GWR or LNER Hitachi trains. The rims are far too deep for the silly hooks.

“There's also the issue of expecting smaller and less strong people to lift relatively heavy and cumbersome objects off the ground and manoeuvre them in tight spaces. I regularly encounter people who struggle with this, not helped by LNER (not GWR) leaving of the two doors to the compartment locked.”

And finally, David9694 added: “It's easiest if you can stick to commuter/ local type trains. Problems arise these days because on long distance/express trains, like on the GWR main line, the guard's van has disappeared and not been replaced.

“No issue on GWR local trains (Portsmouth-Cardiff) or South West or Southern. In practice, there is no-one around to give you a hard time.”

04 May 2023, 15:37
Pro cyclist Imogen Cotter launches road safety campaign, says “drivers see cyclists as an object that interferes with their journey”
04 May 2023, 15:12
Red jersey Marianne Vos sprints to second Vuelta stage win

Cycling, as Gary Lineker never said, is a simple game. 150 riders take on a grippy, complicated 133km in the middle of a week-long stage race, the best in the world launch attack after attack in the closing kilometres, and in the end, Marianne Vos wins.

The greatest cyclist who’s ever lived wrote yet another line in her illustrious, and now weighty, tome, this afternoon in Guadalajara, easily following the pace on the series of climbs that defined the fourth stage of this year’s Vuelta Femenina, before keeping a low profile as the likes of Demi Vollering, Liane Lippert, and Chloe Dygert launched attacks on the fast run-in.

Vos, wearing the red jersey, then timed her sprint to perfection to comfortably beat Emma Norsgaard and Marlen Reusser for her second stage in a row, extending her lead over Dygert to 25 seconds in the process.

With the first summit finish of the Vuelta coming at the 4.6km, 7.2 percent average Mirador de Penas Llanas tomorrow, the Jumbo-Visma star may be set to finally relinquish her iron grip on the red jersey.

But then again, this is Marianne Vos we’re talking about…

04 May 2023, 14:44
The story of Brooks England, the resurgent British bike saddle specialists
04 May 2023, 13:56
Roger Kluge, 2019 Bay Crits (Zac Williams/ZWP/SWpix.com)
Organisers call time on Australian Bay Crits series

The organisers of the Bay Crits, the cycling season’s annual curtain raiser (sit down, Paris-Nice purists), have called time on the 34-year-old races, citing the financial and logistical issues affecting events all over the world as the reasons behind their demise.

> How do we save UK bike racing? SweetSpot's PR Director on Women's Tour cancellation and staying positive for the future

The Bay Crits, based in Geelong, took place right at the start of January, marking the start of an Australian summer of elite racing that also includes the national championships, the Tour Down Under, and the Cadel Evans Great Ocean road race.

The races have boasted an impressive list of winners, including Caleb Ewan, Robbie McEwen, and Chloe Hosking, and were won in 2023 by Brenton Jones and Ruby Roseman-Gannon.

Caleb Ewan, 2019 Bay Crits (Zac Williams/ZWP/SWpix.com)

Zac Williams/ZWP/SWpix.com

However, those races will prove the last for an event founded in 1989, according to a statement issued by organisers John Trevorrow and Karin Jones.

“It is with a heavy heart we are announcing the famous ‘Bay Crits’ have taken their last pedal stroke, with event organisers making the tough call that the much-loved event will not be continuing into 2024,” the organisers said.

“For the best part of 30 years, and despite some very trying times, we have collectively found a way to make this wonderful event happen, an event cherished by riders, fans, and stakeholders alike and one that has enjoyed a significant place in the Australian cycling calendar.

“The financial and logistics issues we have absorbed now over an extended period of time have become simply too prohibitive to continue, with a significant increase in costs again this year. The packed January cycling calendar has also impacted on the event with it regularly having to start on New Year’s Day. This has made it challenging for many riders and fans, especially those coming from interstate, to participate.

“These factors have increased to such an extent that it is completely uneconomic and unrealistic to get to the start line next year.

“It’s been quite a ride, but all good things must come to an end, and today it is the famous ‘Bay Crits’ that have crossed the line for the final time.”

04 May 2023, 13:29
20mph sign (CC licensed by EdinburghGreens via Flickr)
Petition claims new 20mph speed limits will “increase danger” – by encouraging children to play on the road

As regular readers of the live blog will know, from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart.

However, Ceredigion, a county in the west of Wales, where the council will be required to conduct a formal consultation on the new arrangements, residents have created a petition to stop one rural hamlet from being subject to the proposed 20mph limit.

Nation Cymru reports that on Tuesday Ceredigion County Council received a petition calling for the 30mph zone to remain in Stag’s Head, between Llangeitho and Tregaron, on safety and pollution grounds.

> Retired neurologist says increased weight and acceleration of electric vehicles will lead to rise in cycling-related fatalities unless 20mph speed limits are introduced

“We, the undersigned, object to the above proposal on the following grounds: the proposal is not necessary because the roads involved have a very low accident rate, the roads have a very low volume of traffic,” the petition reads.

The angry residents claim that by lowering the speed limit, motorists will be too busy watching the needle on their dashboard to see children, emboldened by the measures, playing in the middle of the road.

I wish I was making this up.

> James May says 20mph is “plenty fast enough”, and hopes “change in attitude” can help end road sectarianism

“The proposed 20mph limit is not desirable because: it will greatly increase noise and air pollution as the vehicles will be in a low gear especially ascending the three gradients to Stags Head crossroads; drivers will pay more attention to the finer detail of their speedometers at the expense of paying attention to the road ahead; the very slow pace of vehicles could actually encourage children to play in the road,” it says.

“The 20mph limit proposals across the country are a gross waste of public money which should be spent maintaining the road surfaces properly, keeping road drains clear and clearing debris from the sides of the highway.

“All these are essential to primary road safety but are deliberately ignored by Ceredigion Highways Department in the ongoing negligence.”

04 May 2023, 12:56
Covid klaxon! Jumbo-Visma forced into yet another Giro change

And the list of positive Covid cases goes on, as the Dutch team – which heads into the Giro aiming for pink with Primož Roglič – announced at lunchtime their third enforced line-up change of the week, with Jos van Emden making way for Sam Oomen:

At this rate, if you have nothing else on over the next three weeks, turn up in Italy with your bike and you may just be handed a spot in Jumbo’s Giro team…

04 May 2023, 12:10
Pidcock and Ferrand-Prevot spotted on prototype Pinarello mountain bikes
04 May 2023, 11:26
Covid-19 strikes again, as Gino Mäder latest rider to be ruled out of the Giro

We’re scribbling all over grand tour start lists like it’s 2021 this week, as Bahrain-Victorious’ Swiss hope Gino Mäder became the latest rider to be ruled out of the Giro d’Italia following a positive Covid test.

The 26-year-old, who won a stage of the 2021 Giro before going on to finish fifth at that year’s Vuelta, will be replaced in the Bahrain line-up – headed by GC hopefuls Damiano Caruso and Jack Haig – by Japanese veteran Yukiya Arashiro.

Mäder, who finished fifth at Paris-Nice in March, is the fourth rider to fall victim to the Covid curse before the Giro has even started, after home favourite Giulio Ciccone and Jumbo-Visma duo Tobias Foss and Robert Gesink were ruled out after positive tests.

Somebody, quick, wrap Remco and Primož in cotton wool please…

04 May 2023, 10:50
Guess who’s back, back again?

After what must have felt like the longest Wednesday in history for those involved, Wiggle and Chain Reaction’s sites are finally back in action… with controversial rebrands still intact:  

Chain Reaction back up
Wiggle returns

It’s alive! It’s alive!

> Wiggle and Chain Reaction down... days after much-criticised rebrand

04 May 2023, 10:27
Bikes on a Train: What’s your experience?
gwr main bike

Fancy hearing your thoughts read out, perhaps even by my dulcet tones, on an upcoming episode of the road.cc Podcast? Well, here’s your chance…

As part of our planned discussion about an old live blog favourite, the ups and downs of taking your bike on a train (particularly in the UK, but not limited to it), we would love to hear your experiences.

Do you have any horror stories? Or have you always had a great experience? Either way, let us know in the comments, and we may just feature your hot take on the pod.

In the meantime, cast your mind back to editor Jack’s rather mixed experience on a Great Western Railway train back in 2019:

> Taking a bike on a Great Western Railway train: a live blog experience

04 May 2023, 09:58
You know the Giro’s just around the corner when…

Is any bike race more synonymous with the snow than the Giro? The Gavia, Hampsten, Kruijswijk – I could go on.

Though, as someone who got caught in a wild thunderstorm in Barcelona at the weekend, I have a degree of sympathy for any riders who prefer the balmier temperatures of the Tour or Vuelta’s showpiece climbs.

Anyway, just two days to go now…

04 May 2023, 09:43
Bikes at Polling Stations

It’s local election day in England, which means one thing in the road.cc offices (no, not a new list of inept, anti-cycling councillors to provide us with an endless supply of news – though that is part of it, I suppose) – it’s time to ride your bike to the polling station!

And quite a few have already been getting in on the Cycle to Vote action, judging by social media this morning:

Are you riding your bike to the polling station today? Let us know in the comments! And, before you ask, the elections in Northern Ireland aren’t for another two weeks (lagging behind as usual…).

04 May 2023, 08:50
Annemiek van Vleuten drops a bottle during Vuelta (Eurosport)
Annemiek van Vleuten misses three bottles then almost rides into Jayco AlUla soigneur in Sonic the Hedgehog tribute at the Vuelta Femenina

World champion Annemiek van Vleuten hasn’t looked her dazzling best in the rainbow bands this year so far, I think it’s fair to say.

The 40-year-old Dutch superstar, rather staggeringly given her dominance in recent years, is yet to win a bike race in 2023 and, during yesterday’s wind-ravaged third stage of the newly expanded Vuelta Femenina (won by another icon of the sport, Marianne Vos), continued to look decidedly uncomfortable as the peloton split into echelons.

Not that the brutally effective Van Vleuten has ever troubled the style charts even when at her best, of course.

But yesterday’s four (four!) attempts to grab a bottle from the side of the road – which, finally, saw her nearly grind to a halt to secure one before almost immediately weaving into a startled Jayco swanny in the process – were definitely ragged, to say the least, resembling a particularly frustrating game of Sonic or Mario Kart. Yes, someone was playing the Nintendo over the weekend…

But, remember, this is Annemiek van Vleuten. And, despite the awkwardness of her bottle grabbing, the Movistar leader still had the strength to solo back up to the group, during the hectic closing stages of the fastest ever road race in the history of the Women’s WorldTour.

And, as we learned to stunning effect at last year’s Tour de France, never write Van Vleuten off after a few shaky opening days at a stage race…

After obtaining a PhD, lecturing, and hosting a history podcast at Queen’s University Belfast, Ryan joined road.cc in December 2021 and since then has kept the site’s readers and listeners informed and enthralled (well at least occasionally) on news, the live blog, and the road.cc Podcast. After boarding a wrong bus at the world championships and ruining a good pair of jeans at the cyclocross, he now serves as road.cc’s senior news writer. Before his foray into cycling journalism, he wallowed in the equally pitiless world of academia, where he wrote a book about Victorian politics and droned on about cycling and bikes to classes of bored students (while taking every chance he could get to talk about cycling in print or on the radio). He can be found riding his bike very slowly around the narrow, scenic country lanes of Co. Down.

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75 comments

Avatar
Awavey replied to Legin | 1 year ago
2 likes

Agreed I've thought that for a while, SD Worx were demonstrating the same bad technique during the spring classics and managed 3 drops in a row too.

I think they should hold them out vertically or angled away from the team helpers body because the riders are worried about hitting the team helpers arm hand, who is just standing there basically holding them in the most comfortable position for them, not the rider.

Then again I remember a marathon with a table of paper cups of water and it descended into near It's A Knockout farce any runner trying to grab a cup with any water in it.

Avatar
Legin replied to Awavey | 1 year ago
4 likes

I was taught to hold them at the top, lightly with the fingers, outstretched arm, so that the rider is not having to force them out of your hand and potentially crashing.

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lllnorrislll | 1 year ago
6 likes

I wonder if they have declared their accident to their insurance company? I appreciate she has paid for repairs out of her own pocket, but as far as I am aware, she still needs to declare this 'non-fault' accident.

It would be a shame for her insurance to become null and void and liable for increased policy payments.

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Jetmans Dad replied to lllnorrislll | 1 year ago
2 likes

lllnorrislll wrote:

I wonder if they have declared their accident to their insurance company? I appreciate she has paid for repairs out of her own pocket, but as far as I am aware, she still needs to declare this 'non-fault' accident. It would be a shame for her insurance to become null and void and liable for increased policy payments.

All incidents like this should be declared to the insurer. 

The difference is that if you make a claim, you might lose a chunk of NCD and likely also see your headline premium increase, whereas if you pay for the damage yourself without making a claim you will just see the premium go up. 

However, if the driver was genuinely not at fault as the article claims, then the insurance company has recourse to claim the costs from the cyclist, via their home insurance (if they have it) or in court if not. If they recover their costs that way then the NCD would normally be restored ... but it is likely that the premium will still go up. 

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Global Nomad | 1 year ago
1 like

re train travel - occasionally had to use trains to return into London after mechanicals out in the countryside - never had a problem when out of rush hour..buy ticket take bike on local train.
Only problem was when the trains were cancelled and the replacement bus service refused to let me on the bus. Ended up struggling to another station on a  different line.

Avatar
brooksby replied to Global Nomad | 1 year ago
2 likes

Global Nomad wrote:

Only problem was when the trains were cancelled and the replacement bus service refused to let me on the bus. Ended up struggling to another station on a  different line.

So, not exactly replacing the train service... 

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I love my bike replied to brooksby | 1 year ago
1 like

Not normally an issue with coaches. If it's a bus, then I believe the rail company have to provide an alternative.

However, if it's planned engineering work & a bus, you're on your own.

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Awavey replied to I love my bike | 1 year ago
0 likes

They always use coaches on GA for the near permanent engineering works at weekends somewhere on the route, and there's a whole other story about the competence of those drivers they contract in, they never accept bikes, it's probably why I've not sampled the new trains yet

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Global Nomad | 1 year ago
3 likes

Would I be wrong to presume that if it had been the drivers fault, the police may have instigated prosecution for causing injury by careless driving - (the driver who knocked me of my bike was prosecuted) . Similarly the cyclist would make a claim on the drivers insurance for the injury/damage.

The driver could have made an insurance claim but chose not too, but also chose to rant to newspaper. 

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David9694 replied to Global Nomad | 1 year ago
10 likes

If it's any comfort to her, the police didn't prosecute either the driver that knocked me off at a roundabout in 2007. I pursued and won a claim off her insurance.

Strangely enough, the pack of lies she told the police about it was that I had run into the side of her car. 

This news story will of course feed into the driver victimhood narrative a treat. 

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Secret_squirrel | 1 year ago
0 likes

That Bike on Train pic is a bit naff.  Absolutely no problem gettting that bike hung properly.

Are they a bit crap and sub-optimal absolutely but not for someone whose fit enough to ride a decent graveller.  Those tyres are narrow enough to fit as well.

Just laziness IMO.

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Dnnnnnn replied to Secret_squirrel | 1 year ago
1 like

Pretty sure you couldn't hang that bike on the new(ish) GWR or LNER Hitachi trains. The rims are far too deep for the silly hooks. 
There's also the issue of expecting smaller and less strong people to lift relatively heavy and cumbersome objects off the ground and manoeuvre them in tight spaces. I regularly encounter people who struggle with this, not helped by LNER (not GWR) leaving one of the two doors to the compartment locked.

Avatar
mikewood replied to Secret_squirrel | 1 year ago
2 likes

I dont think I'd be hanging my bike up by it's carbon rims either!

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Jack Sexty replied to Secret_squirrel | 1 year ago
2 likes

Pretty sure the hook was so thick I couldn't have got the wheel through - and in any case it was an Enve rim so no way was I hanging it on that thing!

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lesterama | 1 year ago
2 likes

Bikes on trains: Never had any problems with Southeastern, Southern or Thameslink. No need to book, bike areas are reasonable, no travelling with bikes during peak hours.

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David9694 replied to lesterama | 1 year ago
4 likes

It's easiest if you can stick to commuter/ local type trains - problems arise these days because on long distance / express trains, like on the GWR main line, the guard's van has diseappeared and not been replaced. 

No issue on GWR local trains (Portsmouth-Cardiff) or South West or Southern.
In practice, there is no-one around to give you a hard time. 

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stonojnr | 1 year ago
2 likes

Not the collectives favourite youtuber but I thought Ashley Neals latest cycling video was very good https://youtu.be/c0LIAh9cVxI

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lesterama replied to stonojnr | 1 year ago
2 likes

Very good by his standards

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hutchdaddy | 1 year ago
6 likes

If the cycle hit her car then, lights clothing and helmet are completely irrelevant.

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lllnorrislll replied to hutchdaddy | 1 year ago
5 likes

Unless she pulled across the path of the cyclist and he was left with no choice but to hit the car.

This would add a question over her manner of driving and she may not be as innocent as first stated.

Just because there is no police prosecution, does not mean that she wasn't at fault.

I wonder how her insurance would judge it?

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IanMK replied to hutchdaddy | 1 year ago
4 likes

Most urban environments are well lit and therefore I suspect the lack of lights did not mean that he didn't see her. It's most likely that she hit him and victim blamed that on his lack of lights. The police probably considered that versus her driving and decided it was 50:50.

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wycombewheeler | 1 year ago
10 likes

Quote:

The police response is absolutely shocking and no prosecution has happened, and instead, I’ve had to fork out for my own car’s insurance. I have found the whole experience harrowing.”

Are we in a state where every road traffic collision results in a prosecution? I was not aware of this, I understood this was normally a civil matter and dealt with by insurance.

Back to the incident, the cyclist collided with the passenger side of the car, three ways a collision can occur at a roundabout

1) vehicle enters roundabout and collides with the side of another vehicle already on the roundabout (passenger side impact)

2) vehicle pulls out onto the roundabout in front of a vehicle on the roundabout (driver side impact)

3) vehicle tries to leave the roundabout cutting across another vehicle on their left, passenger side impact.

Given that there was no mention of anyone going through a red light on this traffic light controlled roundabout, I wonder if the driver actually left hooked the cyclist, hence resulting in her being breathalised.

The alternative of the cyclist riding into the side of her vehicle as he was joining the roundabout seems unlikely, we don't tent to ride into objects in front of us. Unless she went through a red light.

But if the dashcam footage indicated one of the two parties went through a red light I would expect a prosecution.

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Adam Sutton replied to wycombewheeler | 1 year ago
5 likes

Agree, but there seems to be an inability for people to understand how roundabouts work these days. Whether cycling or driving I never assume that someone isn't going to blindy pull onto a roundabout. I have seen both cars and bikes not given a single look before pulling onto roundabouts from the left.

Luckily the only time this resulted in an incident it was my partner in our car so no injury. The insurance was clearcut despite no dashcam (this was what made us get one!) the damage was to the rear passenger side, so we were clearly on the roundabout and they pulled onto the roundabout and into us. The amusing part was when a year later they clearly had been conctaced by ambulance chasing solicitors and tried to take us to court, it didn't even make it to court for them. LOL.

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mitsky replied to wycombewheeler | 1 year ago
0 likes

Were the vehicles self-driving/autonomous?

No. Use http://rc-rg.com

ie

1) cyclist enters roundabout and collides with driver already on the roundabout (passenger side impact)

2) cyclist pulls out onto the roundabout in front of a driver on the roundabout (driver side impact)

3) cyclist tries to leave the roundabout cutting across another driver on their left, passenger side impact.

 

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brooksby replied to mitsky | 1 year ago
1 like

"Door mirror!"

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Hirsute | 1 year ago
12 likes

Re crash with car
"Cyclists are like Stormtroopers... They rarely hit anything
#StarWarsDay"

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brooksby replied to Hirsute | 1 year ago
7 likes

Hirsute wrote:

Re crash with car "Cyclists are like Stormtroopers... They rarely hit anything #StarWarsDay"

This is the Way.

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Hirsute replied to brooksby | 1 year ago
4 likes

This is the Way

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Rendel Harris | 1 year ago
20 likes

The driver is quite at liberty to instigate a civil action against the cyclist for the return of her £700; in the couple of times that I have had to take small claims court action I've found that the judges are extremely good at clearly and fairly assessing the evidence and awarding damages to the wronged party. I wonder why she hasn't availed herself of this excellent service and chosen to go whining to the newspapers instead?

Avatar
Oldfatgit replied to Rendel Harris | 1 year ago
11 likes

It's almost as if the driver shoulders some responsibility themselves ...
Nah ... couldn't be *that* ...

As they have spent 700quid to avoid the loss of NCD, I wonder if they have reported it to their insurers...

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