Cycling Time Trials: Transgender women can no longer compete in female events

"How many cis women is this going to catch out, who've been competing but never knew their testosterone levels"

I'm going to take a wild guess at zero. If I'm wrong, they should be disqualified even in the very rare event that they're not doping. 

"Testosterone levels aren't an exact science, there's a lot of variation in levels among women."

Varying between "a lot less than most men" and "really a lot less than most men". 

I don't like the current trend, particularly on "my" liberal/leftish side, of claiming that your opponents must be stupid or malevolent or both: there are usually a range of reasonable options, and plenty of genuinely-held worldviews that I don't agree with but respect as being important to others. 

But on this, I can't reach any other conclusion. The science is as close to settled as science gets, and it's glaringly obvious to anyone with any interest in sport that elite men are faster, stronger, better than elite women: I don't think you'd find an elite sportswoman who'd disagree. If you allow men, and trans women are men, into wonen's sport then women will no longer be able to win in women's sports. If you think that's a price worth paying in order to let some people pretend they're something they're not, and to let at-best average men like Austen Killip and Veronica Ivy lord it over actual women, then say so. Handwaving over DSD women (which trans women are not) is neither here nor there, and smacks of an attempt to muddy the waters for whatever reason. 

Shhh...that's hate speech.

Certainly a challenge, but people with DSDs are not trans and are not a reason to let men compete in female sports.

Agree that women with DSD are not trans, but my understanding is that they can have male range testosterone - and so may fall foul of the max 2.5nmol/l test ... an unpleasant surprise to find out after a win.

I think the precise details are mostly under wraps, but my understanding is that Caster Semeny is chromosomally and hormonally male, but with a mutation that affects only the development of the penis and prostate - but not any other male developmental traits (bone structure, muscle, etc.).

How many Intersex athletes, or people for that matter, are there? 

My basic search says 0.02 - 0.05% worldwide are intersex, so the numbers of athletes are close to zero.

The fact that we can only point to one example in high level sport in the past 100+ years being Caster Semenya shows how rare it is. 

My personal view is Trans is a mental illness, similar to Covid hysteria, and both instances have those 'affected' wanting everyone else to buy into it. 

One, you say?

https://www.insider.com/intersex-olympic-athletes-barred-from-competing-...

There you are, 3 medallists and a fifth place in middle/long distance running alone.

Ok, so 4 then. These examples would seem to be Intersex, not Trans men pretending to be women. One of them suggested they would be happy to race in an alternate category. 

Are you suggesting these African athletes are Trans? 

Not sure what your curiosity refers to. The settled science is that (a) going through male puberty confers massive athletic advantages on males, in terms of height, muscle mass/strength, lung capacity and bone density, as well as a physiology that super responds to testosterone, to mention only a few. In addition, (b) ongoing testosterone production maximises these athletic benefits.

In trans athletes, policing testosterone levels only reduces the (b) part, not even fully eliminating it, leaving the much larger (a) benefits almost completely intact.

The Science of Sport podcast has broadcast many good episodes on the science of this - you should have a listen.

Taking like-for-like, a man will always have an advantage over a woman because of the benefits of testosterone and development at (and to a lesser extent before) puberty. 

Some women will be better than some men, in that I'd expect Marianne Vos to beat Sam Smith on a hilly time trial. But she'd lose every time to a Pogacar or even a middling male pro, and I wouldn't fancy her chances against a really good male amateur or junior. 

It's just really patently obvious that men have a sporting advantage over women. It isn't due to sexism or women not trying hard enough that men's records are consistently better than women's. I have to question the motivation of people seeking to fudge this, as it often seems like they're trying to find a reason that an average or over-the-hill man should be allowed to compete against elite women because they can't rank highly against their own sex. 

FFS, if you really think that men are choosing to transition simply to win a bike race you really do have problems.

My concern is that there is limited data when it comes to elite athletes. It is meaningless to look at the average population and try to extrapolate to people who are inherently outliers genetically, physically and physiologically. 

To be clear, I don't have an answer, but I am sure that what has recently been announced isn't the right solution in the long run.

People do all kinds of crazy a$$ed sh1t to dominate in a sport. So it is not beyond the realms of reality that some might do this. 

They're not transitioning though. There are fully intact males, identifying as trans females, competing against biological females in elite sports. And they are doing it to win because many previously competed as males and didn't get close to winning.

"My concern is that there is limited data when it comes to elite athletes"

There's loads of data. The results of very many competitions across a huge range of sports have been recorded for very many years. I'm not aware of a single one in which women's performances are better than men's. It almost suggests that there might be a biological reason for that. 

"FFS, if you really think that men are choosing to transition simply to win a bike race you really do have problems."

Spoken like someone who wants to argue for "muh trans rights" but realises they have nothing. Now the "Science" doesn't support your views, you claim "limited data". 

Literally centuries of it, more recently amongst elite athletes with very very few examples like Caster Semanya. 

It clearly is an attempt to cheat. Otherwise they would compete against the men and accept their lowly placing there. 

According to this https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php men are on average 10+cm taller.

I don't know whether trans women lose 10+cm of height after their surgeries?

Most transwomen haven't had surgery.

Data behind that please? But it's a red herring: I don't think surgery will have any measurable effect on their performance on a bike.

Per "surgery" - presumably we're talking about "Gender Confirming Surgery"?  In which case that should have almost zero relevance (unless you have some complications / somehow the weight difference matters).

Like many "facts" here the data sets all seem to come with significant uncertainties.  That's possibly because a) we only recently started collecting data b) in many places this sort of thing is not condoned by the authorities or is otherwise dangerous so data are not gathered or reported c) there aren't so many data points (relatively few people).

However for those who are interested there's a US survey from 2015 which suggested that indeed the majority of trans people reported did not have surgery (partial breakdown also given).

Is height an advantage for cyclists?

You appear determined to ignore the more pertinent cycling advantages of muscle mass and lung capacity - why is that? Oh, and I forgot to mention genetic males have higher haematocrit %, so more red blood cells per cc. Does this sound like a level playing field?

https://boysvswomen.com/

My 17yo son could beat most/all female olympians

Not sure which bit of that is hard to understand

SpiderJ wrote:

https://boysvswomen.com/

Interesting comparison. In a way it is a shame there hasn't been a truly elite Male2Female athlete come along and settle this argument once and for all. It has taken too long to get to this point. Women's right to compete fairly must come above trans rights in sport alone. 

'Women's right to compete fairly must come above trans rights in sport alone.'

So right ... it is a complete affront to women to try and compete against people who have been through male puberty.

No.

What that website actually shows is that an elite lower age group male athlete with ongoing presence (indeed peak production) of testerone can run faster than elite women athletes. For cycling where power to weight is seen as major determinant of performance the presence of a post puberty male skeleton with female hormone modulated physiology (energy utilisation less efficient, fat deposition more likely) I could see how it might actually be a disadvantage. Obviously for other sports where ptw isn't so crucial (swimming?) the outcome may be different.

But not if you block his testosterone to 2.5 or below for the required 2 years. Then he'd be hard pressed to beat his own grandad. 

An X'th percentile man remains above an X'th percentile woman, even after 2+ years of hormone treatment. They lose some performance, but not all.

Really, MAB on M2F hormone treatment are in their own category. They're in between, performance wise.