London cyclist seriously injured in skip lorry collision

Prudence is by far the best policy. Stay well clear. It's all very well stating you have the right to ride up the inside to get to an ASL or the cycle lane in front allows you to, but you would be a fool to do so. Unfortunately there are many fools on the roads on bicycles and in vehicles. Bicycle fools tend to end up dead whereas vehicle fools not.

I have had numerous cycling numptees push past me whilst I sit patiently on the nearside behind buses, trucks, vans and coaches or indeed cars with little space to pass. They continue up the inside of all manner of large vehicle pedals invariably scraping on along the kerb as they negotiate the narrow gap. Then the vehicle starts to move and they are up shit creek without a paddle.

Often I get sworn at, told to Fuck Off! when I draw their attention to their stupidity and try to save their miserable lives. Now I think fuck 'em! If they want to die then let them as they are morons and I am past caring. It's the drivers of these large vehicles I feel for who aren't doing anything wrong. However if a vehicle turns in on you the driver is clearly grossly negligent or dangerous as it then has to be intentional. It's just proving it.

Whenever I see those sketchy looking tipper trucks on the roads in London I have one thought

"Death Truck"

and I stay the hell away from them, even when it slows my journey a little

see way too many cyclists taking insane risks with their safety around HGV in London, perhaps due to ignorance rather than arrogance

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So what you're saying is that cyclists should behave in such a way that lorry drivers shouldn't need to check their mirrors? That seems constructive - I'm sure attitudes like this will really help to fix the problem Silly

How about lorry drivers check their mirrors, fix their blind spots and stop killing people?

My discussion with the lorry driver lastnight came to this exact conclusion. Cyclists shouldn't put themselves in danger and those little advisory stickers are there to help us. DO NOT GO DOWN THE INSIDE!
He felt that if one person took heed of these stickers and lives were saved, then they were an excellent idea.
While he agreed in principle that a sticker in the cab asking the driver NOT TO KILL CYCLISTS it wouldn't be worthwhile as these drivers are already highly trained (and cyclists not)
He also stated that you don't develop a sense of fear and danger until the age of 21. Anyone have anything to endorse this?

Had to scream at some woman for her own stupidity the other day. I was sitting behind a black cab that was going slow because the cyclists at the junction were all sorting themselves out after the traffic lights. I myself had pulled up behind the cab as I arrived late for the light change and tucked in behind the cab. So as I'm free wheeling this girl undertakes the cab just as it is approaching a parked lorry. If she had gotten that wrong she would have had a nasty accident with her getting pinched between the cab and the lorry with no one but herself to blame. If she had any idea of the predicament she was putting herself I doubt she would have done it. Much of the problems of lorry vs cyclist could be saved by the rule 'do not undertake'. That makes no judgement on what happened here, but I truly believe that this should form a part of cycling safety.....as people here point out, ASL with cycle lanes actively encourage this.

In parked traffic I always feel safer following the motorbikes on the outside. You may have the occasional right turning car to attend to, but they won't kill you and you have plenty more space to avoid them to (a right turning car is at least not going to do so into on-coming traffic and so you have a whole lane in which to manuovre. Whereas following the line of the pavement you'll only have buses, HGVs and arseholes cutting you off or obstructing you completely. Riding mid-lane is almost as bad.

Never one to blame the victim and it's wrong to make assumptions when we don't know the specifics.

As has been pointed out, painted cycling lanes can cause more danger than they're worth. If I'm using one I tend to take a prominent position and use it more as a comfort zone (however this can lead to drivers deciding I'm taking the p!ss out of their need for uninterrupted journey and passing too closely). If there's one at a set of lights I will only use it to queue jump if the light is red or I feel I'm moving along with the traffic and can then take a prominent position as it starts to flow.

The blind spots of lorries are an obvious concern but suggesting drivers don't look is a little daft, having said that a lot of car drivers are too busy texting, dancing eating cereal etc. to bother glancing in a mirror. I tend to treat everyone as an idiot as there's no point in trying to apportion blame after they've killed me. I always give lorries a ridiculous amount of space, a very wide berth and if it looks like a possible battle, get the hell out of the way. Again it may seem like I'm being subservient but I'm not going to win the argument from under the wheels.

Education does seem important though, and the trend of ladies is a concerning one. It would be interesting to see whether these are 'pop to the park' cyclists with a basket etc. (apologies for the sweeping generalisation) as opposed to commuters...

I am not one to "victim blame" and i don't know what happened in this incident. But i do agree that within the context of the appalling road infrastructure we have in london-though it is slowly improving- we all have a responsibility to be careful and to anticipate risk. I don't see how cyclists in London could not now be aware of the risks associated with left turning vehicles especially HGV's. Its plastered all over the media. Yet yesterday and today I have seen 2 cyclists, both female, undertaking a left turning hgv and then a bus, one at Blackfiars where it meets fleet st, the other Baylis road where the turn was towards Waterloo bridge. In the first the HGV had indicated for some time and was being driven with great care and at slow speed. The bus had been stationary at the lights, indicating to go left and then began to move forward and turn as the lights changed. She was trying to creep down the gap, not an ASL feeder, to get in front of the bus. I called out to her to stop. Why are people continuing to take these unnecessary risks?
We have a long way to go in terms of infrastructure changes, shared space, motorists recognition of our right to be on the road and take primary and we are right to demand safety improvements in respect of HGV's etc. but we do have an obligation to be sensible and safe too. And that is not "victim blaming".

I still fail to understand why the police are so keen to teach us about the blind spots that in the 21st century can be very easily eliminated. Why don't the cabs have cameras installed that would give them very clear vision of every side of the lorry? Why do they still only use old fashioned mirrors?
The police in their "exchanging places" initiative failed to put any bus or lorry drivers on a bike in rush hour.
It's like teaching women how to avoid being raped instead of dealing with the rapists. Okay, maybe an extreme example.

As we all know infrastructure changes and redesign of HGVs to reduce blind spots is the ideal solution. This however is a slow, and expensive, process.

In the meantime is it not appropriate for companies that run HGVs (and I work for one) in large urban areas to reduce their impact in these areas, by trying to avoid rush hour and for transport managers (and drivers themselves) to reduce to number of LH turns at busy junctions, by routing appropriately?

It is too early to tell what has happened in this instance. But it is worth remembering that skip lorries and tipper trucks have an incredibly high crash rate compared with other categories of HGVs. There are reasons why these particular vehicles are involved in a disproportionately high number of incidents, and right across the UK.

Not enough measures are being taken to target the safety issues surrounding these vehicles and in some instances, deal with the behaviour both of the drivers and the firms they work for. When you consider how many HGVs there are making deliveries in London, you have to ask why it is that skip lorries and tippers are involved in the majority of incidents involving cyclists and not other HGVs.

I'm currently having a conversation with a lorry driver who believes that one should be responsible for one's own safety when on the road.
Easy to say in the cab of your articulated lorry.
Less easy when on a bike.
Speedy recovery and the sooner we ban these vehicles from the city centres, the better. We don't need them there.
This is his latest pearl of wisdom:

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Well, you won't have to worry about being responsible when you're dead, squashed under a truck turning left....

You've got some odd views on this mate, what's the root cause of that?

Oh good grief, not another one. Get well soon.

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But if a lorry driver isn't going to check his mirrors, and decides to turn 90 degrees to the left and run you over, I'm not exactly sure what you can do.

You can not be there at all by being cautious rather than filtering up the inside.

As my initial post described, you might be there already, or you might put yourself there.
Best not to put yourself there and avoid being there as much as you can.

Blaming drivers is great; it makes cyclists feel good and shifts any thoughts away from us. A moments thought and not putting yourself in a dangerous position will help to avoid issues such as this one.

We still have no indication of how things occurred and we would be wise to avoid blaming one or other party until such evidence becomes clearer.

Of course it is stupid to filter down the inside. Although that is where the cycle lanes and ASL's take you.

Equally it is stupid for lorries to overtake bicycles near junctions.

Once again it is a female cyclist and a HGV. It's clearly a massive assumption, but isn't it plausible that cyclists who follow the suggestions of the road markings are disproportionately likely to get hurt.

I hope the victim recovers fully, and that we won't keep having to hear of these incidents.

I'm saying that everyone who uses the road has a responsibility to keep themselves and others safe, and given the obvious and documented issues with lorries and cyclists in London, it would seem prudent for cyclists, as the vulnerable half of the equation, to exercise caution in filtering down the side of lorries.

This is a perfectly legal maneuver but any sensible cyclist would think twice before filtering down the inside of a lorry especially considering the number of incidents involving lorries and cyclists in London...

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which if you are filtering down the inside

Ah, I'm beginning to see the problem.

From the LetsRecycle.com report linked to above:

The skip loader involved in the incident is also shown to have visible cycling safety livery.

That will be the sticker halfway down side saying "STRICTLY NO ...(BICYCLES?)" (can't make it out) which if you are filtering down the inside you wouldn't see.

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there is a series of incidents that match

Then all drivers are guilty?
Then all Muslims are terrorists?
Then all Chinese are inscrutable?

Have a word...

Blame, whatever.. there is a series of incidents that match. Lorries being involved in the death or serious injury of cyclists, often women. Yet, there is nothing being done to prevent this. Fewer people are killed in terrorist attacks yet we spend billions on that.

Ooh scary!

I hope you stay in on Guy Fawkes night.