Brexit: what does it mean to you and your bike?

Leviathan wrote:

Rich, I haven't backtracked at all. You associated yourself with the nutters when you voted Leave. You knew it when you voted, you held your nose and hoped the medicine would work. Thats twice you have said I advocate violence; then you use words like ironic and hypocritical; that is an irony worth of Alanis Morrisette. Reap what you sew.

You can have the final word...

I never said you advocated violence but remarks such as yours create an atmosphere in which violence is far more likely to occur.

Trying to associate all leave voters with a murderer and confer guilt by association is, in itself, the exact type of behaviour that has been blamed for the very murder you were using to smear leave voters.

Your attempt at virtue signalling led to you behaving in the exact same way as those you were condemning.

That was the ironic/hypocritical part.

As a final point, I didn't base my voting decisions on how some random nutter was planning to vote.

I based it on what I thought was best for the country.

The vote is over and the decision has been made.

We all need to respect both the decision and our fellow voters, whichever way they voted.

That is the basis of democracy.

@Leviathan

The SNP were in power in Scotland, the entire SNP parliamentary party backed leave and the leader of the leave campaign was the Scottish First Minister.

It's not really a comparable situation.

Trying to pretend that your remark was not a smear is ridiculous.

It was blatantly an attempt to associate any leave voter with racism etc. That somehow voting the same way as a tiny number of nutters leads to guilt by association.

The demonising of those who disagree with you politically is exactly what led to Jo Cox's murder.

Trying to backtrack once your hypocrisy was called out doesn't make it any better.

Leviathan wrote:

This thread is petering out. Rich, your economic arguments might (might) have some merit, but it is marginal at best and probably negative. The idea we will regain sovereignty is a fantasy. Whether you are controlled from Brussels or Eton is immaterial. As we are seeing Leave had no plan, and we cannot have Free Trade without free movement of people. You cannot extort a deal from the other members.

I am happy to be on the loosing side if I am not with the racists, liars and murderers.

Where to start...

Firstly, trying to smear all leave voters as racists, liars and murderers is an example of the hateful politics that Jo Cox actually campaigned against.

Once you start down that road it can be used as a justification for violence and hatred against your political opponents.

Ironic.

The Eton comment is equally ridiculous.

Yes our democracy has flaws but at least we can directly elect our MP's. How many members of the EU commission are elected?

Reducing the number of unelected officials writing our laws definitely seems like a step towards restoring democratic accountability and sovereignty.

Of course we don't know what our post Brexit relationship with the EU will be like.

Negotiations have not (officially) started yet and will probably have to wait until after the Conservative leadership campaign is over.

Until then (and possibly even after) no members of the Leave campaign are in a position to negotiate so how can you accuse them of having no plan when they have not had the opportunity to begin negotiations yet?

We have a wide range of trade options, some will include free movement, some will not.

If we withdrew completely from the common market we would be able to trade under WTO rules (with minimal tarriffs). We would also be able to trade freely with the rest of the world.

That would be my preferred option but we shall have to wait and see.

In the meantime maybe we could just try and discuss the issues without resorting to slurs, insults and inflammatory statements.

@crazy-legs

It's eloquently written but mostly nonsense.

We will still be able to do all the things she says she cannot, they may be marginally more difficult that is all.

Ask yourself if you know of anyone from outside the EU who now lives in the EU?

If so, how did they manage it if it is now going to be impossible to move to the EU?

Do many people from outside the EU travel widely in Europe?

How do they do it if that too is now going to be impossible?

As for the conjecture about house prices and food prices... If the author is so confident of those predictions she should invest accordingly.

Finally she states that we will not be able to have free trade without agreeing to abide by European rules. A huge EU-Canada free trade agreement is in the process of being ratified. If Canada can have trade without all the rules why can't we?

Rich_cb wrote:

@crazy-legs It's eloquently written but mostly nonsense. We will still be able to do all the things she says she cannot, they may be marginally more difficult that is all. Ask yourself if you know of anyone from outside the EU who now lives in the EU? If so, how did they manage it if it is now going to be impossible to move to the EU? Do many people from outside the EU travel widely in Europe? How do they do it if that too is now going to be impossible? As for the conjecture about house prices and food prices... If the author is so confident of those predictions she should invest accordingly. Finally she states that we will not be able to have free trade without agreeing to abide by European rules. A huge EU-Canada free trade agreement is in the process of being ratified. If Canada can have trade without all the rules why can't we?

the trade deal Canada has is nothing like having access to the common market. It wouldn't allow out financial services industry to function properly, for example. It's incredibly clear, as it has been for months, that we cannot have access to the common market without making a large contribution to the EU budget and accepting free movement of labour. If people understood that, then the result of the referendum would have been different. 

Bikebikebike wrote:

the trade deal Canada has is nothing like having access to the common market. It wouldn't allow out financial services industry to function properly, for example. It's incredibly clear, as it has been for months, that we cannot have access to the common market without making a large contribution to the EU budget and accepting free movement of labour. If people understood that, then the result of the referendum would have been different. 

We could tailor our negotiations based on our needs, Switzerland have voted to opt out of free movement but still want to maintain free trade so we would have an ally if we decided to negotiate on that basis.

We could alternatively decide to join EFTA (and accept free movement) or the customs union without free movement or go completely alone and simply trade based on WTO rules which would limit any tariffs paid.

I think we would thrive outside the common market so losing access to it would not make a great deal of difference in long run.

Rich_cb wrote:

@unconstituted I appreciate that my position on the royals may seem a bit hypocritical so I thought I'd elaborate a bit. Essentially if we replaced the royals with an elected but equally ceremonial head of state almost all of the costs associated with the royals (security/pomp and ceremony/travel etc) would remain but simply be transferred to the new president. We would however lose a good source of soft power. So it seems to me that the royals are better value for money!

Well yeah coming from a position of what's best for the country in terms of global power, I'd agree that the Royals are a bargain. And we couldn't replace them with anything stronger, elected or otherwise, as much as it pains me to say it.

As a democrat, (a real one, not a loon that wants to change rules after they don't get what they want, ie. the 2nd EU ref crybabies) I want to see the back of them anyway. Also I have issues with what the represent and toppling them would be a nice start to dismantling the class system. But that's all another story, and don't want to drag you off course!

unconstituted wrote:

 

As a democrat, (a real one, not a loon that wants to change rules after they don't get what they want, ie. the 2nd EU ref crybabies) I want to see the back of them anyway.

 

Crybabies ? - or people pissed off with a Leave campaign base on lies, various Leave campaingners they've now rowed back on the 350M and immigration. So apart from some 'factual' stuff sold to voters, that's ok then..

'Course, it may interest you to know that Farage wanted a rerun in the event of Leave losing 52:48

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendu...

and that the 2nd referendum petition was started by a leave campaigner worried that leave would lose, and is now complaining about his petition being 'hijacked' (Oh, and for Rich_cb, there was an investigation into multiple voting and 77k of the 3.7M or whatever it is now have been annulled..)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-p...

JonD wrote:

unconstituted wrote:

 

As a democrat, (a real one, not a loon that wants to change rules after they don't get what they want, ie. the 2nd EU ref crybabies) I want to see the back of them anyway.

 

Crybabies ? - or people pissed off with a Leave campaign base on lies, various Leave campaingners they've now rowed back on the 350M and immigration. So apart from some 'factual' stuff sold to voters, that's ok then..

'Course, it may interest you to know that Farage wanted a rerun in the event of Leave losing 52:48

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendu...

and that the 2nd referendum petition was started by a leave campaigner worried that leave would lose, and is now complaining about his petition being 'hijacked' (Oh, and for Rich_cb, there was an investigation into multiple voting and 77k of the 3.7M or whatever it is now have been annulled..)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-p...

 

Oh politicans lied. Cry me a river. None of which matters in the slightest. All campaigns spin a lot of nonsense to get votes. Only a donkey would believe an iota of any of the 'facts' presented.

Democracy isn't a dice you roll until you get the result you want. I voted remain, but I woud be aghast if there was a second referendum on the issue without a significant and material change in circumstances, ie. with the Scottish Referendum which clearly needs be redone.

Irrational crybabies with no clue about democracy and have no interest in constiutional affairs until after the fact are as low a breed to me as a racist far-right EDL member. 

Both are the bane of our country and the reason why there is no significant movement in constitutional development for decades which is badly needed.  How many of the millions who signed that peition are a member of the ERS or Republic? Less than 1% I'd wager. Bunch of rabid, knee-jerk, airheads.

JonD wrote:

(Oh, and for Rich_cb, there was an investigation into multiple voting and 77k of the 3.7M or whatever it is now have been annulled..)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-second-eu-...

 

Cheers for the update, let me know when it hits 17,410,743...

freebsd_frank wrote:

 

Rich_cb writes:

Quote:

The name calling doesn't bother me in the slightest.

That's because you've got a head akin to a box of rocks.

Quote:

As a general rule though once you resort to personal insults it is a sign you've lost the argument.

I've found that as a general rule, people who start a sentence with "As a general rule..." are making an entirely fallacious appeal to authority and are talking shite.

Quote:

Addressing your point;

I voted based on what I believed was best for the country.

That's the problem. You wouldn't know what was best for yourself and your
country if it hit you on the head.

Quote:

The majority of those who voted agreed with me.

Yes. And 90% of Germans voted for the Nazi party in the '30s. They were so obviously in the right too, weren't they?

Quote:

That's democracy for you.

If you don't like democracy feel free to go and try living under an alternative system.

You have such a touching faith in democracy; it's like a child's belief in the tooth fairy.

You think you live in a democracy, even though I've pointed out to you 2 institutions involved in passing this country's legislation which have precisely fuck all to do with democracy. You clueless muppet.

You're so thick that you voted out to "increase democratic accountability" or
whatever gibberish. But what you've ended up with is worse laws being passed by
institutions with even less accountabilty and a doomed economy. Give yourself
and your fellow Brexiteers a pat on the back and regale your children with
tales about how you stood up for "democracy" whilst simultaneously pissing all
over their future.

 

A lot of us are angry with our fellow Brits for making what we think is a brain dead decision, worried for our futures and frustrated at the way that the campaigns on both sides were coducted in an environment of hollow promises, false information and allowing people to believe what they wanted to hear rather than setting out a clear set of policies on what they were actually choosing between. However this sort of language and personal abuse does not help.

freebsd_frank wrote:

 

Rich_cb writes:

Quote:

The name calling doesn't bother me in the slightest.

That's because you've got a head akin to a box of rocks.

Quote:

As a general rule though once you resort to personal insults it is a sign you've lost the argument.

I've found that as a general rule, people who start a sentence with "As a general rule..." are making an entirely fallacious appeal to authority and are talking shite.

Quote:

Addressing your point;

I voted based on what I believed was best for the country.

That's the problem. You wouldn't know what was best for yourself and your
country if it hit you on the head.

Quote:

The majority of those who voted agreed with me.

Yes. And 90% of Germans voted for the Nazi party in the '30s. They were so obviously in the right too, weren't they?

Quote:

That's democracy for you.

If you don't like democracy feel free to go and try living under an alternative system.

You have such a touching faith in democracy; it's like a child's belief in the tooth fairy.

You think you live in a democracy, even though I've pointed out to you 2 institutions involved in passing this country's legislation which have precisely fuck all to do with democracy. You clueless muppet.

You're so thick that you voted out to "increase democratic accountability" or
whatever gibberish. But what you've ended up with is worse laws being passed by
institutions with even less accountabilty and a doomed economy. Give yourself
and your fellow Brexiteers a pat on the back and regale your children with
tales about how you stood up for "democracy" whilst simultaneously pissing all
over their future.

 

The insults continue.

If you're hoping to get a rise out of me you are going to even more disappointed than you were last Friday.

A few points.

Yes the House of Lords is undemocratic. Give me a vote to abolish that and I'll take it.

The Head of State is also undemocratic but as it's a largely ceremonial role and the Royal Family generate a huge amount of soft power I'm prepared to let that slide.

The vast majority of the power within the UK system is concentrated within the House of Commons, all of whose members are directly elected.

So our democracy isn't perfect but then which democracy is?

I'm curious as to your preferred system of government?

You clearly feel yourself superior to your fellow citizens and believe that there is a problem with democracy so what system would you prefer?

As a final point, prior to the enabling act (which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and effectively abolished democracy) I don't think the Nazi's ever got above 45% of the vote. Strange that someone as intelligent as yourself would make such a basic mistake.

Maybe you're not always right about everything?

freebsd_frank wrote:

 

Rich_cb writes:

Quote:

The point is it will be a democratically elected British government making those decisions.

Like the democratically elected House of Lords and our democratically
elected head of state, the Queen?

Or do you mean the democratically elected House of Commons, as voted for by
you and your fellow window-licking morons?

The problem with democracy is that half the population has an IQ of less than
100. A significant portion have an IQ that barely approaches room-temperature.
Like you.

It was said repeatedly during the campaign, that no longer would we have to
put up with laws made by "unelected Brussels bureaucrats".

Unfortunately for you it's not true; if we're going to continue to trade with
the EU where ~40% of our exports go. Also, the unelected bureaucrats have a
rather better track record at producing sensible legislation than our elected
representatives. Dangerous Dogs Act? Makes me proud to be British. Not.

But of course, we get to spend the grand sum of 8.5 billion quid on ourselves!
Big win. It represents less than 1% of government expenditure and if we're
going to remain part of the single market, we'll still have to pay it,
probably more so as to encourage others who think about exiting.

But, you say, we'll kick out those revolting immigrants! Sorry. The EU has
made it abundantly clear that free movement of labour is a prerequisite of
staying in the single market.

So the only thing we've "won" is that in 2 years time we will have no
influence on what the EU does and we've got another self-serving Old Etonian
as PM. That is, if we're lucky.

I suggest it will be significantly worse than that. Nobody in their right mind
is going to invest in a country where the population are so ignorant that they
resemble a load of turkeys who will happily vote for Christmas. To say nothing
of the years more of uncertainty: anathema to business.

I (along with many others, I suspect) are going to take our STEM
qualifications and move abroad and leave you mouth-breathers to it.

I will buy a big bag of popcorn and watch the country I once loved do a
nosedive into the crapper over the next few years.

I will of course mock you and your fellow little Englanders mercilessly as you
wave your flags and shout "Sovereignty" on your barren rock in the Atlantic.

BTW, you fucktard, tell me again how I've obviously lost the argument because
I've called you out for exactly what you are: a clueless c*nt.

 

You've lost the argument.

Rich_cb wrote:

freebsd_frank wrote:

 

Rich_cb writes:

Quote:

The point is it will be a democratically elected British government making those decisions.

Like the democratically elected House of Lords and our democratically
elected head of state, the Queen?

Or do you mean the democratically elected House of Commons, as voted for by
you and your fellow window-licking morons?

The problem with democracy is that half the population has an IQ of less than
100. A significant portion have an IQ that barely approaches room-temperature.
Like you.

It was said repeatedly during the campaign, that no longer would we have to
put up with laws made by "unelected Brussels bureaucrats".

Unfortunately for you it's not true; if we're going to continue to trade with
the EU where ~40% of our exports go. Also, the unelected bureaucrats have a
rather better track record at producing sensible legislation than our elected
representatives. Dangerous Dogs Act? Makes me proud to be British. Not.

But of course, we get to spend the grand sum of 8.5 billion quid on ourselves!
Big win. It represents less than 1% of government expenditure and if we're
going to remain part of the single market, we'll still have to pay it,
probably more so as to encourage others who think about exiting.

But, you say, we'll kick out those revolting immigrants! Sorry. The EU has
made it abundantly clear that free movement of labour is a prerequisite of
staying in the single market.

So the only thing we've "won" is that in 2 years time we will have no
influence on what the EU does and we've got another self-serving Old Etonian
as PM. That is, if we're lucky.

I suggest it will be significantly worse than that. Nobody in their right mind
is going to invest in a country where the population are so ignorant that they
resemble a load of turkeys who will happily vote for Christmas. To say nothing
of the years more of uncertainty: anathema to business.

I (along with many others, I suspect) are going to take our STEM
qualifications and move abroad and leave you mouth-breathers to it.

I will buy a big bag of popcorn and watch the country I once loved do a
nosedive into the crapper over the next few years.

I will of course mock you and your fellow little Englanders mercilessly as you
wave your flags and shout "Sovereignty" on your barren rock in the Atlantic.

BTW, you fucktard, tell me again how I've obviously lost the argument because
I've called you out for exactly what you are: a clueless c*nt.

 

You've lost the argument.

You've fucked the future of an entire generation, and you can't even stand a bit of name calling? 

Bikebikebike wrote:

You've fucked the future of an entire generation, and you can't even stand a bit of name calling? 

The name calling doesn't bother me in the slightest. 

As a general rule though once you resort to personal insults it is a sign you've lost the argument. 

Addressing your point;

I voted based on what I believed was best for the country. 

The majority of those who voted agreed with me. 

That's democracy for you. 

If you don't like democracy feel free to go and try living under an alternative system. 

Bikebikebike wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

freebsd_frank wrote:

 

Rich_cb writes:

Quote:

The point is it will be a democratically elected British government making those decisions.

Like the democratically elected House of Lords and our democratically
elected head of state, the Queen?

Or do you mean the democratically elected House of Commons, as voted for by
you and your fellow window-licking morons?

The problem with democracy is that half the population has an IQ of less than
100. A significant portion have an IQ that barely approaches room-temperature.
Like you.

It was said repeatedly during the campaign, that no longer would we have to
put up with laws made by "unelected Brussels bureaucrats".

Unfortunately for you it's not true; if we're going to continue to trade with
the EU where ~40% of our exports go. Also, the unelected bureaucrats have a
rather better track record at producing sensible legislation than our elected
representatives. Dangerous Dogs Act? Makes me proud to be British. Not.

But of course, we get to spend the grand sum of 8.5 billion quid on ourselves!
Big win. It represents less than 1% of government expenditure and if we're
going to remain part of the single market, we'll still have to pay it,
probably more so as to encourage others who think about exiting.

But, you say, we'll kick out those revolting immigrants! Sorry. The EU has
made it abundantly clear that free movement of labour is a prerequisite of
staying in the single market.

So the only thing we've "won" is that in 2 years time we will have no
influence on what the EU does and we've got another self-serving Old Etonian
as PM. That is, if we're lucky.

I suggest it will be significantly worse than that. Nobody in their right mind
is going to invest in a country where the population are so ignorant that they
resemble a load of turkeys who will happily vote for Christmas. To say nothing
of the years more of uncertainty: anathema to business.

I (along with many others, I suspect) are going to take our STEM
qualifications and move abroad and leave you mouth-breathers to it.

I will buy a big bag of popcorn and watch the country I once loved do a
nosedive into the crapper over the next few years.

I will of course mock you and your fellow little Englanders mercilessly as you
wave your flags and shout "Sovereignty" on your barren rock in the Atlantic.

BTW, you fucktard, tell me again how I've obviously lost the argument because
I've called you out for exactly what you are: a clueless c*nt.

 

You've lost the argument.

You've fucked the future of an entire generation, and you can't even stand a bit of name calling? 

That's ridiculous quite frankly unless you have a crystal ball.