London needs to shed its white, male, middle-class cyclist image, says Will Norman

ConcordeCX wrote:

 

EDIT: there's a blog post here by an academic specialising in this area which lays out some of the barriers to cycling:

http://rachelaldred.org/writing/culture-equity-and-cycle-infrastructure/

 

Good read; there are cultural factors for some communities related to status AND there are infastructure access issues. So it's complex, but the basic message - build more safety in and people will ride. As an aside people like me (the 80%) need to be more generous with space and attitude as cycling becomes more popular and accept that riding as fast as we used to is perhaps no longer appropriate in some areas

alotronic wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

 

EDIT: there's a blog post here by an academic specialising in this area which lays out some of the barriers to cycling:

http://rachelaldred.org/writing/culture-equity-and-cycle-infrastructure/

 

 

Good read; there are cultural factors for some communities related to status AND there are infastructure access issues. So it's complex, but the basic message - build more safety in and people will ride. As an aside people like me (the 80%) need to be more generous with space and attitude as cycling becomes more popular and accept that riding as fast as we used to is perhaps no longer appropriate in some areas

Not sure about the complex bit although chucking in "socio-spatial inequalities in cycling environments" just seems flowery language.

Seems most women don't cycle due to safety concerns, appearance and then children get thrown in the mix. Not sure that amounts to complexity.

hirsute wrote:

alotronic wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

 

EDIT: there's a blog post here by an academic specialising in this area which lays out some of the barriers to cycling:

http://rachelaldred.org/writing/culture-equity-and-cycle-infrastructure/

 

 

Good read; there are cultural factors for some communities related to status AND there are infastructure access issues. So it's complex, but the basic message - build more safety in and people will ride. As an aside people like me (the 80%) need to be more generous with space and attitude as cycling becomes more popular and accept that riding as fast as we used to is perhaps no longer appropriate in some areas

Not sure about the complex bit although chucking in "socio-spatial inequalities in cycling environments" just seems flowery language.

Seems most women don't cycle due to safety concerns, appearance and then children get thrown in the mix. Not sure that amounts to complexity.

My wife commutes to her work on her bicycle. The clunky old Specalized was replaced recently by a new Pinnacle. She's definitely a woman, as our two kids can attest.

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

chaos wrote:

I am struggling with this one. Nobody encouraged me to cycle, I chose to do it. Nobody has ever told me not to cycle. Nobody has ever discouraged me. We are fortunate to live in a country where if you want to cycle you can. Yes, some vehicle drivers are a menace. Yes, some roads are poorly designed. Yes, there are some horrible people out there who do not like cyclists for whatever reason. However, if you want to get on a bike and ride, just do it. Once you have discovered the many benefits of cycling you will not need any further encouragement.

what are your demographics? Whatever they are, this response sounds very naive to me, showing a great lack of awareness of the many factors that conspire to prevent people from cycling, or visiting the countryside, or going to the National Gallery, or whatever it is they want to do, but can't.

one of those factors is precisely the lack of awareness among the traditional white population of things we take for granted, and the problems that other people face, sometimes just walking into a country pub.

Regardless also of race, sex and whatever else, sometimes just having the confidence to go into a new environment is intimidating for people. You can read comments all over the internet about people who've had bad experiences in bike shops, for example, because they didn't know anything about bikes, and were put off by the staff. Or by people like many respondents in this thread who are showing an entirely unwelcoming attitude towards people outside the white, middle-class male demographic. That's why places like London Bike Kitchen were founded, or Velorution, and any number of other similar enterprises .

 

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white. Works both ways and I think you'll find the crime stats aren't really indicating that ethnic minorities are being set upon by the cast of Straw Dogs or those who drink in The Slaughtered Lamb so that's why they're not off hiking and cycling. 

Maybe, just maybe (and this is the bit you don't understand) certain groups aren't interested in certain things. Maybe, just maybe cycling is one of them. Maybe we're in danger of once again having white people doing the thinking and deciding what other people should be interested in. This seems more racist than the openly racist if you ask me. 

 

I live in one of the areas of London where I've been told by the Daily Mail and right-leaning colleagues that it's dangerous to walk around if you're not white. Well, I'm white and I've lived here for nearly 30 years. I'm still here.

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

Which cities are you referring to?  I presume some place in South America or maybe somewhere in Africa?  (Where what you say might be true for all I know).

  I assume you aren't referring to anywhere in the UK, because that seems a strange claim to make.  Or do you take your travel advice from Donald Trump?

As for 'certain groups aren't interested in certain things' - well, yes, the group known as 'normal people' aren't interested in cycling in stressful and dangerous conditions that require high-speeds and constant alertness.

  For many different reasons the tolerance of those kinds of stresses seems to vary with various demographic factors (age being perhaps the most obvious one).  That's a good reason to change those conditions, surely?

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

These claims of there being areas of cities inaccessible to white British people always seem to come from people who don't actually live in the city concerned and are happy to believe these spurious reports without verifying them. 

Even worse, they sometimes come from someone like Mr Trump who live in completely different countries!

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

I've walked through that area a few times and haven't noticed anything scary at all. Are you sure you're not imagining these attacks on your person? Maybe it's the ghost of The Ripper?

hawkinspeter wrote:

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

I've walked through that area a few times and haven't noticed anything scary at all. Are you sure you're not imagining these attacks on your person? Maybe it's the ghost of The Ripper?

I believe the small number of morons reported on in 2013 were prosecuted and that seems to have been the end of it. While predominantly Muslim, Whitechapel is still a pretty mixed area, and there are plenty - probably an increasing number of white folk living there in safety. Indeed, I know a couple and they've never mentioned anything like this. 

hawkinspeter wrote:

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

I've walked through that area a few times and haven't noticed anything scary at all. Are you sure you're not imagining these attacks on your person? Maybe it's the ghost of The Ripper?

Cool anecdote - where did I mention attacks on my person?! I was simply pointing out that factually there are areas in London where white people are likely to feel uncomfortable and that there is a history of violence against them.

Htc wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

I've walked through that area a few times and haven't noticed anything scary at all. Are you sure you're not imagining these attacks on your person? Maybe it's the ghost of The Ripper?

Cool anecdote - where did I mention attacks on my person?! I was simply pointing out that factually there are areas in London where white people are likely to feel uncomfortable and that there is a history of violence against them.

 

You mean, where _you_ would feel uncomfortable.  Why not own your own 'issues'?

Htc wrote:

there are areas in London where white people are likely to feel uncomfortable and that there is a history of violence against them.

Change the city name, remove "white" (or better still, change it to "non-white"), and you could be describing rougher bits of many places in the UK.

Sharia patrols make headlines but the far more prevalent drunken white thugs are a much greater threat to the average pale-face's wellbeing.

Of course, some white people feel "uncomfortable" just because they aren't the overwhelming majority in a place - but that's their problem, not the fault of those of with darker skin.

Htc wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

I've walked through that area a few times and haven't noticed anything scary at all. Are you sure you're not imagining these attacks on your person? Maybe it's the ghost of The Ripper?

Cool anecdote - where did I mention attacks on my person?! I was simply pointing out that factually there are areas in London where white people are likely to feel uncomfortable and that there is a history of violence against them.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you had some personal experience to add to the discussion, but instead you're just mindlessly repeating rubbish.

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

Have you been to Whitechapel? I go there quite frequently on bike and foot. 

There's some cracking pubs there such as Indo near the station, also some great restaurants such as Tayyabs.
Neither myself or anyone else I know have either felt threatened there or seen a sharia patrol. I imagine the area felt a lot more threatening in the good old days when the Krays were in control of the area, executing people in the Blind Beggar.  

Htc wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Get back to me when you've got the confidence to walk around certain city areas as a white.

I'd like to know which areas - as a white Londoner it would surely be good to have that knowledge!

Whitechapel - although there has been little in the media since 13/14 there are still Sharia patrols being carried out in the area on a regular basis along with a long list of speakers at the East London Mosque with form for insisting violence against non-Muslims.

this is complete and utter bollocks. Whitechapel is perfectly safe for everyone (except, sometimes, Muslims being harassed by pigshit-thick English nationalists). 

ConcordeCX wrote:

chaos wrote:

I am struggling with this one. Nobody encouraged me to cycle, I chose to do it. Nobody has ever told me not to cycle. Nobody has ever discouraged me. We are fortunate to live in a country where if you want to cycle you can. Yes, some vehicle drivers are a menace. Yes, some roads are poorly designed. Yes, there are some horrible people out there who do not like cyclists for whatever reason. However, if you want to get on a bike and ride, just do it. Once you have discovered the many benefits of cycling you will not need any further encouragement.

what are your demographics? Whatever they are, this response sounds very naive to me, showing a great lack of awareness of the many factors that conspire to prevent people from cycling, or visiting the countryside, or going to the National Gallery, or whatever it is they want to do, but can't.

one of those factors is precisely the lack of awareness among the traditional white population of things we take for granted, and the problems that other people face, sometimes just walking into a country pub.

Regardless also of race, sex and whatever else, sometimes just having the confidence to go into a new environment is intimidating for people. You can read comments all over the internet about people who've had bad experiences in bike shops, for example, because they didn't know anything about bikes, and were put off by the staff. Or by people like many respondents in this thread who are showing an entirely unwelcoming attitude towards people outside the white, middle-class male demographic. That's why places like London Bike Kitchen were founded, or Velorution, and any number of other similar enterprises .

 

I did say “I was struggling with this one”. Maybe my comment was too simplistic, but we are only talking about riding a bike! When I am out on a bike I feel totally anonymous and it makes me happy to see all other riders out there regardless of colour, shape, gender, age, type of bike, etc. I have lived too many years in countries where forums such as this are not even possible, so I would like to think I not naïve. And, on that note, I will bow out of forums and stick to riding my bike.

ConcordeCX wrote:

what are your demographics? Whatever they are, this response sounds very naive to me, showing a great lack of awareness of the many factors that conspire to prevent people from cycling, or visiting the countryside, or going to the National Gallery, or whatever it is they want to do, but can't.

one of those factors is precisely the lack of awareness among the traditional white population of things we take for granted, and the problems that other people face, sometimes just walking into a country pub.

But aren't you over complicating it? There's no physical barrier or skill set required for an able bodied person to ride a bike. It's also not like trying to get into particular universities or getting good A level grades.

What are these factors then that conspire to prevent people from cycling?

hirsute wrote:

But aren't you over complicating it? There's no physical barrier or skill set required for an able bodied person to ride a bike. It's also not like trying to get into particular universities or getting good A level grades.

What are these factors then that conspire to prevent people from cycling?

i've just posted a link in the post below this one.

if it's as simple as you think, why is it so predominantly white, middle-class men?

ConcordeCX wrote:

i've just posted a link in the post below this one.

if it's as simple as you think, why is it so predominantly white, middle-class men?

Yes, I just saw that only a few mins before my question was posted.

Will have a read.

hirsute wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

what are your demographics? Whatever they are, this response sounds very naive to me, showing a great lack of awareness of the many factors that conspire to prevent people from cycling, or visiting the countryside, or going to the National Gallery, or whatever it is they want to do, but can't.

one of those factors is precisely the lack of awareness among the traditional white population of things we take for granted, and the problems that other people face, sometimes just walking into a country pub.

But aren't you over complicating it? There's no physical barrier or skill set required for an able bodied person to ride a bike. It's also not like trying to get into particular universities or getting good A level grades.

What are these factors then that conspire to prevent people from cycling?

"Prevent" is the wrong word (I know it was CCX who used it).

Few people are unable to ride a bike (although it's not a skill learnt equally by all cultures).
It's more about deterrence than prevention. Why don't most people want to? And why is that especially the case for groups who make up 80+% of London's population (i.e. those who aren't middle class white males)?

If we want cycling to become a serious solution to London's transport (and public health) challenges then we need to tackle the factors that deter people from taking it up. It's also potentially serious amounts of public money.

Safety is the biggest issue for women and women are the largest element of the population. Most of my female colleagues wouldn't dream of cycling in central London for safety reasons (even if their fears are largely unfounded).

There are other factors which affect different groups in varying measure: where people live and in what sort of accommodation; where and when they work and travel; when they start families (which affects travel and housing decisions); status and cultural issues, etc.

chaos wrote:

I am struggling with this one. Nobody encouraged me to cycle, I chose to do it. Nobody has ever told me not to cycle. Nobody has ever discouraged me. We are fortunate to live in a country where if you want to cycle you can. Yes, some vehicle drivers are a menace. Yes, some roads are poorly designed. Yes, there are some horrible people out there who do not like cyclists for whatever reason. However, if you want to get on a bike and ride, just do it. Once you have discovered the many benefits of cycling you will not need any further encouragement.

People need to feel safe, this is pretty much the prime reason why people won't/don't commute. This iwhen you are more likely to be caught up in high density motorised traffic on narrower raods with mulitple hazards hitting your senses every second or so.

Even very experienced cyclists have come on to forums and said they've given up because of too many incidents, that's why despite the shouting cycling numbers/miles travelled have not gone up much across the country as a whole, in fact barely when you take into account population increases. Certainly modal share hasn't budged.

For the once in a blue moon leisure cyclist joining the ranks of utility/commuter cycling is often a big step and making them feel safe and have a journey that isn't going to send them on the circular route that's twice as far/convoluted as simply driving is massively important. SK and his cronies as well as every other local authority have failed to do that since forever.

people cycle despite the lack of infra, despite the LA/police/CPS/judges inaction to protect people on bikes but it does not encourage them whatsoever.

chaos wrote:

I am struggling with this one. Nobody encouraged me to cycle, I chose to do it. Nobody has ever told me not to cycle. Nobody has ever discouraged me. We are fortunate to live in a country where if you want to cycle you can. Yes, some vehicle drivers are a menace. Yes, some roads are poorly designed. Yes, there are some horrible people out there who do not like cyclists for whatever reason. However, if you want to get on a bike and ride, just do it. Once you have discovered the many benefits of cycling you will not need any further encouragement.

If asked why I cycled in London, I'd might initially give a similar answer. I was thinking about why so few others do what I independently, rationally chose for myself.

Then I remembered when I was about 18 and didn't even think of cycling until some mates got into MTB-ing. They didn't actively suggest I take it up but I'm sure they influenced and supported me. I didn't then think about road cycling (spandex freaks!) until some of my MTB-ing circle got into it and I met some others who did it. No-one actively encouraged me but it switched on a lightbulb that maybe wouldn't otherwise have lit, or been noticed. Likewise commuting and utility cycling. All my own decisions - but shaped by those around me (who were white middle-class males).

I agree with your pro-cycling arguments - but we're already sold. If about 80% of London's population ain't buying what's supposed to be good for everyone, though, then there might be a problem with the 'product'.

chaos wrote:

I am struggling with this one. Nobody encouraged me to cycle, I chose to do it. Nobody has ever told me not to cycle. Nobody has ever discouraged me. We are fortunate to live in a country where if you want to cycle you can. Yes, some vehicle drivers are a menace. Yes, some roads are poorly designed. Yes, there are some horrible people out there who do not like cyclists for whatever reason. However, if you want to get on a bike and ride, just do it. Once you have discovered the many benefits of cycling you will not need any further encouragement.

+1.

Sadly, though, I am white, middle aged and (probably) middle class.

But when I started to ride (at the age of 6), we were working class. But still white.

However, lightly overweight throughout!

50kcommute wrote:

I moved out of London to Heathrow area last year and have not cycled to work since because..

There's no segrated infrastructure out here to link to London and there's no space on the trains to take my bike.

Govt sort it out!!

Grand union canal?

Delete as a repeat

Delete as a repeat

wycombewheeler wrote:

50kcommute wrote:

I moved out of London to Heathrow area last year and have not cycled to work since because..

There's no segrated infrastructure out here to link to London and there's no space on the trains to take my bike.

Govt sort it out!!

Grand union canal?

Thanks ...gave it a go and it took ages