HGV blind spot project that will save hundreds of lives up for award

ktache wrote:

If I am being overtaken I am being placed in the blind spot by the highly trained, professional driver.  I can do nothing about that.

I think this photo demonstrates my second point about pedestrian crossings.

I assume https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-dorset-48066113

Mungecrundle wrote:

Better vision, better training, better driving standards are undoubtedly the most important factors for safety.

However it is worth reiterating that should you be a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist or even in a car, and you find yourself between the kerb and a HGV when the HGV is turning across your path then you should be able to recognise that you are in a potentially deadly situation that needs a prompt resolution.

I don't think it is wrong to educate vulnerable road users about situations that they can take action to avoid if they are aware of dangers, however that situation has come about and regardless of who is at fault.

Sorry but I disagree, mindset is the singularly most important aspect for safety above everything else. You can train people all you like and from that you should have better standards, you can put in place safety features everywhere BUT it takes the human to actively ALL THE TIME want to adhere to the training, standards and utilise the safety features/equipment to help with that - IF indeed that training is up to scratch in the first instance!

We still see dangerous driving by so called professionals, this isn't due to lack of training for the most part, this isn't down to a lack of mirrors or other kit that can aid, it's down to the selfish I don't give a fuck/I'm too fucking lazy/impatient etc attitude of the operator, you can put that into any situation not just in HGVs/PSVs et al but any large machinery operators or persons that use equipment that requires very specific training, concentration and vigilence all the time due to the hazard that it presents.

It's taken a ridiculously long period to get to even a very basic level in the haulage industry and still hasn't filtered to everyday/non 'professional' drivers and their compared to other operators in industry of equipment that can kill/maim. This is why RIDDOR was put in place and Risk assessments, yet on the roads it's still a free for all, we still see tens of thousands of KSIs due to basic errors by people who simply don't give a fuck and almost as less concern that they've killed or maimed someone.

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

...mindset is the singularly most important aspect for safety above everything else.

I'll give you that and hope you don't mind if I borrow it to use in future discourse.

Mungecrundle wrote:

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

...mindset is the singularly most important aspect for safety above everything else.

 

I'll give you that and hope you don't mind if I borrow it to use in future discourse.

No worries.

Humans are so very fallible, they can be influenced without even knowing it/easily duped/will follow even if it goes against what they know to be wrong because not follow/do as others seems to be harder/be an outsider, they'll seek the line of least resistance*, want to do as little as possible to achieve goals/tasks and would rather that than actually take responsibility for their actions/keep others safe from harm.

For far too many they get into not just bad habits but dangerous habits when in control of machinary that does harm when it is not controlled. I've personally seen trained soldiers get slapdash/not follow the rules and end up almost killing one of their own mates, that one time you got away with doing x becomes the norm because you got away with it/didn't get caught and dealt with and it saved you x period of time so it readily becomes ingrained to do it that way despite being trained not to, because it's a 'bind' more lengthy to do it the correct/safe way.

unfortunately it can take a lot of life learning to truly understand that taking responsibility and being 'on it' all the time when you can pose such a threat of harm is how it should always be.

Allowing ill trained people with the wrong mindset because of the ease of being able to get away with it and barely ever checking that or changing that is tantamount to corporate manslaughter by the government. They know why people do harm with machinery, but for motor vehicles they have ignored the problems for over a century. Large vehicles have a special set of problems for the operator but that can be overcome to a degree, however to take account of factors such where even a minor error causes death (never mind piss poor attitude/mindset) then we seriously need to rethink matters, these mirrors, training and so on will help but it will never be enough to stop the killing.

Segregate, yes, but segregate the motors away from specific parts of the existing road network in built up areas (let's call them 'motor' ways) and if you need final mile solutions that cost more in some regards but actually has a bigger financial penalty overall not to mention the human cost then we should be looking at that as a solution to safety as it's far more preferable surely!

this is why to me moving motors off the existing infra on routes that traverse cities/towns and spider in from the burbs that can be used for peds/cycles/very limited speed powered mobility vehicles etc, is better than segregated lanes next to motor lanes/roads, because that segregated lane either ends or has to criss cross 'motor' roads. This is in part why the Dutch have such high cycle death rates at these crossings and is one of the ignored failures of cycle segregation. then surely that is preferable to a lost human life and making  specifically allow only those that pose next to zero threat of harm (that being pes/equestrians/cyclist.

All of that in itself part of a mindset, to shift who/what can have access to where and why forcing certain users off/away from the vulnerable and not forcing the vulnerable away, similar to helmets/hi-vis, instead of forcing this, resolve the problems that cause people to think they need to wear it and why orgs/gov want to promote it, as before, it's the easy/lazy solution and they can get away with it because no-one is pulling them up/forcing them to change tack even though we have the facts/stats to back up that their way of thinking is unsound/unsafe/costs society more money and importantly more misery/less wellbeing

*hence why most segregated cycle lanes are not particularly inviting, Mickael Coalville Andersen talks about natural travel lines for people on bikes.

ktache wrote:

A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.

This. Approximately half my commute is on a dual carriageway ringroad, with frequent roundabouts. As it's often the hour that HGVs are getting out and about, through no fault of my own I've found myself on the inside of one within about 20m of a roundabout on countless occasions. 

JMcL_Ireland wrote:

ktache wrote:

A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.

This. Approximately half my commute is on a dual carriageway ringroad, with frequent roundabouts. As it's often the hour that HGVs are getting out and about, through no fault of my own I've found myself on the inside of one within about 20m of a roundabout on countless occasions. 

Whos fault was it then? You are the driver, you are responsible for your own road position and safety

Dessyr wrote:

JMcL_Ireland wrote:

ktache wrote:

A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.

This. Approximately half my commute is on a dual carriageway ringroad, with frequent roundabouts. As it's often the hour that HGVs are getting out and about, through no fault of my own I've found myself on the inside of one within about 20m of a roundabout on countless occasions. 

Whos fault was it then? You are the driver, you are responsible for your own road position and safety

The HGV driver that passes when they do not have time to safely complete the overtake. 

There are many cyclists who do stupid things like filtering up the inside of lorries and vans and sit in blind spots. I’m not going to argue otherwise. I see them every day in Oxford. However there are also drivers who overtake cyclists in stupid places. Time and again we have all suffered passes from drivers who have not looked ahead and only seen a cyclist they must pass. Coming up to red lights, a queue of traffic, a narrow point or some other obstruction. Yes, some cyclists put themselves at risk, but what you are replying to is people talking about HGV drivers who put others at risk. The comment being talked about suggested that cyclists should brake and this would fix it. It will stop you getting crushed, and good defensive riding is always something to practice, but that does not change the fact that in these cases the driver is in the wrong. HGV drivers are just as bad as any other driver but should be held to a higher standard.

Dessyr wrote:

JMcL_Ireland wrote:

ktache wrote:

A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.

This. Approximately half my commute is on a dual carriageway ringroad, with frequent roundabouts. As it's often the hour that HGVs are getting out and about, through no fault of my own I've found myself on the inside of one within about 20m of a roundabout on countless occasions. 

Whos fault was it then? You are the driver, you are responsible for your own road position and safety

I guess you missed the word 'dual'.

A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.

They will also stop at pedestrian crossing with the knowledge that they cannot possibly see that the crossing is clear before setting off.  The blind spot extends from the front of these behemoths too.

We all need better vision cabs.

[/quote

Firstly most of us professional drivers don't put others into our blind spots deliberately, Why would we? There are signs on the back saying if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you, stay back, do not go down the inside. All in basic english and all easy to understand, so if I'm stopped at lights and someone chooses to ignore those signs that's of their doing not mine. Pedestrian crossings, here's a tip, most find it common sense, if when using one, look up and if you can't see the driver, they sure as hell can't see you, so you, and you alone have put yourself into a risky situation. Make sure you can see the driver, and make sure they see you looking at them. That way they know you are there. Would you hide from a car drivers view when crossing the road? So why do it with a truck? As for the so called professional bit, yes I am, and I never put others into dangerous situations. We are drivers, not mind readers nor do we have x-ray vision, so instead of blaming truck drivers for things, think whether your life is important to you, if it is, be sensible around bigger vehicles]

Dessyr]

</p>

<p>A lot of these HGVs have notices on the back, warning cyclists&nbsp;about getting into the vehicles blind spots, but the issue I have is that these "highly trained, professional drivers" is that they will deliberately place the vulnerable road use in these known blind spots by overtaking the cyclist, often with the knowledge that they will have to slow down for traffic, or manoeuvre for a pinch point long before the passing could conceivably be completed.</p>

<p>They will also&nbsp;stop at pedestrian crossing with the knowledge that they cannot possibly see that the crossing is clear before setting off.&nbsp; The blind spot extends from the front of these behemoths too.</p>

<p>We all need better vision cabs.</p>

<p>[/quote Firstly most of us professional drivers don't put others into our blind spots deliberately, Why would we? There are signs on the back saying if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you, stay back, do not go down the inside. All in basic english and all easy to understand, <strong>so if I'm stopped at lights and someone chooses to ignore those signs that's of their doing not mine.</strong> Pedestrian crossings, here's a tip, most find it common sense, if when using one, look up and if you can't see the driver, they sure as hell can't see you, so you, and you alone have put yourself into a risky situation. Make sure you can see the driver, and make sure they see you looking at them. That way they know you are there. Would you hide from a car drivers view when crossing the road? So why do it with a truck? As for the so called professional bit, yes I am, and I never put others into dangerous situations. We are drivers, not mind readers nor do we have x-ray vision, so instead of blaming truck drivers for things, think whether your life is important to you, if it is, be sensible around bigger vehicles

wrote:

I wonder home much driver blame is removed by carrying a home made sign?