West London Tory candidate accused of hypocrisy over Cycleway 9 opposition

Rich_cb wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Full details here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/05/dossier-shamed-labour-je... Example of Corbyn lie: Mr Corbyn’s claim that all individuals subject to complaints have been suspended or expelled is described as “untrue” That claim is made by the Jewish Labour Movement. A Labour affiliate organisation for almost a century.

Ah, the Jewish Labour Movement, rather like saying the nazis were really socialists because they called themselves the National Socialists.  They hate Corbyn because he supports Palestinian rights, and the fact that they say he's wrong isn't proof that he's lying.  Would you like to try again with these huge numbers of examples you have of Corbyn lying?

I think I prefer what Alexei Sayle said about anti-semitism in labour "The search for Antisemitism in Labour is the WMD of our age"

burtthebike wrote:

Ah, the Jewish Labour Movement, rather like saying the nazis were really socialists because they called themselves the National Socialists.  They hate Corbyn because he supports Palestinian rights, and the fact that they say he's wrong isn't proof that he's lying.  Would you like to try again with these huge numbers of examples you have of Corbyn lying?

I think I prefer what Alexei Sayle said about anti-semitism in labour "The search for Antisemitism in Labour is the WMD of our age"

That is a clear example of a lie.

Do you not believe that Labour has an anti-semitism problem?

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Ah, the Jewish Labour Movement, rather like saying the nazis were really socialists because they called themselves the National Socialists.  They hate Corbyn because he supports Palestinian rights, and the fact that they say he's wrong isn't proof that he's lying.  Would you like to try again with these huge numbers of examples you have of Corbyn lying?

I think I prefer what Alexei Sayle said about anti-semitism in labour "The search for Antisemitism in Labour is the WMD of our age"

That is a clear example of a lie. Do you not believe that Labour has an anti-semitism problem?

Not clear, it is clearly politically inspired by a group which hates Corbyn because he supports the Palestinians, and they haven't produced any actual proof that what they say is true and neither does the fact check site say that it is a lie.   Alexei Sayle is jewish and he doesn't think there is a problem and I haven't seen a single proven example of anti-semitism in labour, just endlessly repeated smears.  As Goebells said, a lie often repeated becomes the truth.

So, about these hundreds of other examples of Corbyn really lying; where are they?

burtthebike wrote:

Not clear, it is clearly politically inspired by a group which hates Corbyn because he supports the Palestinians, and they haven't produced any actual proof that what they say is true and neither does the fact check site say that it is a lie.   Alexei Sayle is jewish and he doesn't think there is a problem and I haven't seen a single proven example of anti-semitism in labour, just endlessly repeated smears.  As Goebells said, a lie often repeated becomes the truth.

So, about these hundreds of other examples of Corbyn really lying; where are they?

The Jewish Labour Movement have produced sworn statements to the EHRC detailing multiple episodes of flagrant anti semitism within the Labour party.

They have also produced sworn statements that not all of their complaints have been investigated.

This is as part of the EHRC investigation into anti-Semitic racism within the Labour party.

The only other political party to get investigated by the EHRC? The BNP.

Still believe it's a conspiracy?

Interestingly, if you do believe it's a conspiracy, who, ultimately, do you think is directing the conspiracy?

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Not clear, it is clearly politically inspired by a group which hates Corbyn because he supports the Palestinians, and they haven't produced any actual proof that what they say is true and neither does the fact check site say that it is a lie.   Alexei Sayle is jewish and he doesn't think there is a problem and I haven't seen a single proven example of anti-semitism in labour, just endlessly repeated smears.  As Goebells said, a lie often repeated becomes the truth.

So, about these hundreds of other examples of Corbyn really lying; where are they?

The Jewish Labour Movement have produced sworn statements to the EHRC detailing multiple episodes of flagrant anti semitism within the Labour party.

They have also produced sworn statements that not all of their complaints have been investigated.

This is as part of the EHRC investigation into anti-Semitic racism within the Labour party.

The only other political party to get investigated by the EHRC? The BNP.

Still believe it's a conspiracy?

Interestingly, if you do believe it's a conspiracy, who, ultimately, do you think is directing the conspiracy?

I don't think it is a 'conspiracy' in the classic sense. It is partly driven by media bias however. People don't need to 'conspire', they just follow their self-interest.

And part of it is bad-faith, in that it's more about concern with the interests of wealthy white people as a group than Jewish people as a group. The double standard where anti-Semitism is given much more attention than racism or anti-Muslim bigotry is a big clue to that.
If the interests of the rich white people changed, anti-Semitism would suddenly attract much less concern.

Edit - I actually think some of it is because the existence of Israel means the Jews are no longer such an intrinsic challenge to the ethno-nationalist right. Some of the hard-right have come to terms with Jewish people, at least as long as they are over there in Israel. See Tommy Robinson's visit to that country, striking poses with IDF soldiers. See Trump's close support for Netanyahu (even while he also associates with the likes of Bannon and declares actual Nazis to be 'fine people').

This seems to be part of the reason for the split in the Trumpian alt-right, between those who are supporters of Israel and those who are _so_ anti-Semitic that they still dislike Jews more than they do Arabs or Muslims. When Trump's son got booed at a book-signing by Trump's own voters, that was apparently a major part of what was going on.

I have many doubts about Corbyn (he's too posh and too old, for starters). And he hasn't handled this well. And the far-left's excessive fixation on Israel/Palestine is a bit dubious.

But compared to having the Tories, with their long history of actively being racist, it's still no contest.

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Not clear, it is clearly politically inspired by a group which hates Corbyn because he supports the Palestinians, and they haven't produced any actual proof that what they say is true and neither does the fact check site say that it is a lie.   Alexei Sayle is jewish and he doesn't think there is a problem and I haven't seen a single proven example of anti-semitism in labour, just endlessly repeated smears.  As Goebells said, a lie often repeated becomes the truth.

So, about these hundreds of other examples of Corbyn really lying; where are they?

The Jewish Labour Movement have produced sworn statements to the EHRC detailing multiple episodes of flagrant anti semitism within the Labour party. They have also produced sworn statements that not all of their complaints have been investigated. This is as part of the EHRC investigation into anti-Semitic racism within the Labour party. The only other political party to get investigated by the EHRC? The BNP. Still believe it's a conspiracy? Interestingly, if you do believe it's a conspiracy, who, ultimately, do you think is directing the conspiracy?

So you can't produce a single example of Corbyn lying, despite saying that you had lots of them.

Who said it was a conspiracy? Not me, that's for sure, but you bring in another subject to mislead and misdirect.  I don't like to make a habit of insulting people, but you're a tory.

burtthebike wrote:

So you can't produce a single example of Corbyn lying, despite saying that you had lots of them.

Who said it was a conspiracy? Not me, that's for sure, but you bring in another subject to mislead and misdirect.  I don't like to make a habit of insulting people, but you're a tory.

Here's a direct quote from the fact checking link I posted earlier.

"Mr Corbyn has also claimed during this election campaign that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”

But Labour’s own general secretary wrote to MPs in February this year setting out dozens of cases where members were found to have been antisemitic, but were not suspended or expelled from the party. The same letter also revealed that hundreds of complaints of antisemitism had not been formally investigated."

Clear proof that Corbyn lied.

Proof provided by the general secretary of the Labour party.

Proof I provided a link to earlier but that you ignored.

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

So you can't produce a single example of Corbyn lying, despite saying that you had lots of them.

Who said it was a conspiracy? Not me, that's for sure, but you bring in another subject to mislead and misdirect.  I don't like to make a habit of insulting people, but you're a tory.

Here's a direct quote from the fact checking link I posted earlier. "Mr Corbyn has also claimed during this election campaign that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.” But Labour’s own general secretary wrote to MPs in February this year setting out dozens of cases where members were found to have been antisemitic, but were not suspended or expelled from the party. The same letter also revealed that hundreds of complaints of antisemitism had not been formally investigated." Clear proof that Corbyn lied. Proof provided by the general secretary of the Labour party. Proof I provided a link to earlier but that you ignored.

JHC you're going to have to try a bit harder than that.  What the general secretary said was from February, and the Corbyn quote is from ten months later, so ample time for what he said to have taken place.

Getting a bit desperate aren't we?  Despite your claims to have loads of examples, you only have one and you can't prove it.

burtthebike wrote:

JHC you're going to have to try a bit harder than that.  What the general secretary said was from February, and the Corbyn quote is from ten months later, so ample time for what he said to have taken place.

Getting a bit desperate aren't we?  Despite your claims to have loads of examples, you only have one and you can't prove it.

Labour have admitted that they did not investigate all the claims of anti semitism and did not suspend or expel all members who were found to have made anti semitic statements.

This corroborates the statements from the Jewish Labour Movement to the EHRC.

So we have two independent sources that contradict Corbyn's statement.

The most recent of these sources is from the last few weeks giving no time whatsoever for Labour to have investigated all the previously ignored cases.

A reasonable person would conclude that Corbyn is lying.

In order to convince everyone else you'd have to find examples of Labour party members who were guilty of anti semitic behaviour but were neither suspended nor expelled.

This would be irrefutable proof that Corbyn was lying.

Thankfully The Times have done just that.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-anti-semitism-six-disturbing-c...

Changed your mind yet Burt?

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

JHC you're going to have to try a bit harder than that.  What the general secretary said was from February, and the Corbyn quote is from ten months later, so ample time for what he said to have taken place.

Getting a bit desperate aren't we?  Despite your claims to have loads of examples, you only have one and you can't prove it.

Labour have admitted that they did not investigate all the claims of anti semitism and did not suspend or expel all members who were found to have made anti semitic statements. This corroborates the statements from the Jewish Labour Movement to the EHRC. So we have two independent sources that contradict Corbyn's statement. The most recent of these sources is from the last few weeks giving no time whatsoever for Labour to have investigated all the previously ignored cases. A reasonable person would conclude that Corbyn is lying. In order to convince everyone else you'd have to find examples of Labour party members who were guilty of anti semitic behaviour but were neither suspended nor expelled. This would be irrefutable proof that Corbyn was lying. Thankfully The Times have done just that. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-anti-semitism-six-disturbing-c... Changed your mind yet Burt?

No.  Behind the paywall of a right wing,  billionaire owned newspaper that I can't read.  Keep trying.

burtthebike wrote:

No.  Behind the paywall of a right wing,  billionaire owned newspaper that I can't read.  Keep trying.

Read away.

Corbyn was lying.

Case. Closed.

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

No.  Behind the paywall of a right wing,  billionaire owned newspaper that I can't read.  Keep trying.

Read away. Corbyn was lying. Case. Closed.

None of that proves that Corbyn  was lying, so where is the evidence of all the other cases you say you have?

Meanwhile:

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/young-left-wing-jews-canvass-for-la...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-danger-british-j...

https://thebristolcable.org/2019/12/general-election-2019-labour-antisem...

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/michael-rosen-as-a-jew-i-am-vo...

https://orientxxi.info/magazine/anti-semitism-orchestrated-offensive-aga...

https://mondoweiss.net/tag/jeremy-corbyn/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-...

And I couldn't even find the one I wanted, the letter sent by a jewish group supporting Corbyn and disagreeing with the Cheif rabbi.

burtthebike wrote:

None of that proves that Corbyn  was lying, so where is the evidence of all the other cases you say you have?

Meanwhile:

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/young-left-wing-jews-canvass-for-la...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-danger-british-j...

https://thebristolcable.org/2019/12/general-election-2019-labour-antisem...

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/michael-rosen-as-a-jew-i-am-vo...

https://orientxxi.info/magazine/anti-semitism-orchestrated-offensive-aga...

https://mondoweiss.net/tag/jeremy-corbyn/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-...

And I couldn't even find the one I wanted, the letter sent by a jewish group supporting Corbyn and disagreeing with the Cheif rabbi.

 

I have now produced 3 separate sources of evidence that independently and collectively prove that what Corbyn said was a lie.

Care to suggest how that doesn't prove he was lying?

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

None of that proves that Corbyn  was lying, so where is the evidence of all the other cases you say you have?

Meanwhile:

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/young-left-wing-jews-canvass-for-la...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-danger-british-j...

https://thebristolcable.org/2019/12/general-election-2019-labour-antisem...

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/michael-rosen-as-a-jew-i-am-vo...

https://orientxxi.info/magazine/anti-semitism-orchestrated-offensive-aga...

https://mondoweiss.net/tag/jeremy-corbyn/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-...

And I couldn't even find the one I wanted, the letter sent by a jewish group supporting Corbyn and disagreeing with the Cheif rabbi.

 

I have now produced 3 separate sources of evidence that independently and collectively prove that what Corbyn said was a lie. Care to suggest how that doesn't prove he was lying?

Except that none of them actually prove he was lying, and you said he has lied constantly but are only able to produce a single example, which you can't actually prove.  Boris Johnson on the other hand, lies constantly, blatantly, but you ignore that.  Biased much?

burtthebike wrote:

Except that none of them actually prove he was lying, and you said he has lied constantly but are only able to produce a single example, which you can't actually prove.  Boris Johnson on the other hand, lies constantly, blatantly, but you ignore that.  Biased much?

The Times article found multiple examples of Labour members who had been found to have engaged in anti-Semitic behaviour but were neither suspended nor expelled from the Labour party.

Corbyn stated that;
“Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”

The Times article proves that the statement was false at the time that he made it.

Do you dispute that?

If you don't dispute that how can you reconcile that with the position that Corbyn didn't lie?

burtthebike wrote:

...

And I couldn't even find the one I wanted, the letter sent by a jewish group supporting Corbyn and disagreeing with the Cheif rabbi.

Was it this letter from September 2018: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/30/flawed-reporting-on-antisemitism-claims-against-the-labour-party

Quote:

We have long had serious concerns about the lack of due impartiality and accuracy in the reporting of allegations of antisemitism against Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party. The recent report by the Media Reform Coalition examining coverage of Labour’s revised code of conduct on antisemitism shows that we are right to be concerned.

The research examined over 250 articles and broadcast news segments and found over 90 examples of misleading or inaccurate reporting. In relation to the IHRA definition of antisemitism that was at the heart of the dispute, the research found evidence of “overwhelming source imbalance” in which critics of Labour’s code of conduct dominated coverage, with nearly 50% of Guardian reports, for example, failing to include any quotes from those defending the code or critiquing the IHRA definition. Moreover, key contextual facts about the IHRA definition – for example that it has only been formally adopted by eight countries (and only six of the IHRA member states) – were consistently excluded.

The researchers conclude these were not occasional lapses in judgment but “systematic reporting failures” that served to weaken the Labour leadership and to bolster its opponents within and outside of the party.

It is of course entirely appropriate and necessary for our major news outlets to report on the horrors of antisemitism, but wrong to present it as an issue specific to the Labour party.

In covering the allegations that Labour is now “institutionally antisemitic”, there have been inaccuracies, clear distortions and revealing omissions across our most popular media platforms. We believe that significant parts of the UK media have failed their audiences by producing flawed reports that have contributed to an undeserved witch-hunt against the Labour leader and misdirected public attention away from antisemitism elsewhere, including on the far right, which is ascendant in much of Europe.

Prof Noam Chomsky
Brian Eno
Francesca Martinez
Yanis Varoufakis
Ken Loach
Raoul Martinez
Justin Schlosberg Birkbeck, University of London
Prof Des Freedman Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Imogen Tyler Lancaster University
Prof Aeron Davis Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Annabelle Sreberny Soas, University of London
Prof Greg Philo University of Glasgow
Prof Natalie Fenton Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof David Miller Bristol University
Prof David Hesmondhalgh University of Leeds
Prof James Curran Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Julian Petley Brunel University
Stephen Cushion Cardiff University
Jason Hickel Goldsmiths, University of London
Einar Thorsen Bournemouth University
Mike Berry Cardiff University
Tom Mills Aston University
Jenny Manson Jewish Voice for Labour
Leah Levane Jewish Voice for Labour
Lindsey German Stop the War Coalition
Mike Cushman Free Speech on Israel
Glyn Secker Jewish Voice for Labour

Rich_cb wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Ah, the Jewish Labour Movement, rather like saying the nazis were really socialists because they called themselves the National Socialists.  They hate Corbyn because he supports Palestinian rights, and the fact that they say he's wrong isn't proof that he's lying.  Would you like to try again with these huge numbers of examples you have of Corbyn lying?

I think I prefer what Alexei Sayle said about anti-semitism in labour "The search for Antisemitism in Labour is the WMD of our age"

That is a clear example of a lie.

Do you not believe that Labour has an anti-semitism problem?

I believe it does.

But do you believe that Labour's anti-semitism problem is significantly greater than that of the other parties?

Do you have anything to say about Boris Johnson's long association with the rabidly-anti-Semitic (and fellow traveller of nazis) Taki, for example? How do you think that connection would be reported if it were Corbyn rather than Johnson involved?

Rich_cb wrote:

Also if you think Corbyn has never lied you've clearly not been paying attention to the anti-semitism scandal. He's lied repeatedly throughout.

Great.  So you'll be able to provide lots of examples.

Rich_cb wrote:

The whole prorogation argument is a bit weak.

Prior to the supreme court case it was not considered a legal matter.

Constitutional law has been created de novo by this case so to criticise Johnson for not complying with a law that didn't exist when he prorogued parliament is a bit harsh.

Also if you think Corbyn has never lied you've clearly not been paying attention to the anti-semitism scandal.

He's lied repeatedly throughout.

Really? You think that prior to the court-ruling there was nothing at all problematic about the executive being able to shut down parliament arbitrarily on a whim, for as long as it liked, just to get it's policies enforced without MP's scrutiny? You honestly think that nobody could possibly see anything wrong with that until the court ruled on it?

You are such a transparent Johnson apologist.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

[
Really? You think that prior to the court-ruling there was nothing at all problematic about the executive being able to shut down parliament arbitrarily on a whim, for as long as it liked, just to get it's policies enforced without MP's scrutiny? You honestly think that nobody could possibly see anything wrong with that until the court ruled on it?

You are such a transparent Johnson apologist.

Thanks for telling me what I think. Again.

Also, thanks for the random complaints about people being white. Again.

FWIW I think the limits to executive power established by the supreme court have been the best things to come out of the Brexit vote.

Rich_cb wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

[
Really? You think that prior to the court-ruling there was nothing at all problematic about the executive being able to shut down parliament arbitrarily on a whim, for as long as it liked, just to get it's policies enforced without MP's scrutiny? You honestly think that nobody could possibly see anything wrong with that until the court ruled on it?

You are such a transparent Johnson apologist.

Thanks for telling me what I think. Again.

Also, thanks for the random complaints about people being white. Again.

FWIW I think the limits to executive power established by the supreme court have been the best things to come out of the Brexit vote.

You told me what you thought, by posting your thoughts on here. Or have you forgotten that you did so?
And what the hell are you talking about with the second line?

Rich_cb wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

[
Really? You think that prior to the court-ruling there was nothing at all problematic about the executive being able to shut down parliament arbitrarily on a whim, for as long as it liked, just to get it's policies enforced without MP's scrutiny? You honestly think that nobody could possibly see anything wrong with that until the court ruled on it?

You are such a transparent Johnson apologist.

Thanks for telling me what I think. Again.

Also, thanks for the random complaints about people being white. Again.

FWIW I think the limits to executive power established by the supreme court have been the best things to come out of the Brexit vote.

You still haven't explained your second idiotic comment. You seem to get outraged at any reference to the existence of racism, particularly in your precious Tory party. Yet apparently it's fine to talk about anti-semitism in Labour. Why is that the only acceptable topic, and who gave you the right to decide what can be mentioned?

burtthebike wrote:

Nonsense.  We all know that tories are honest, truthful, straightforward and trustworthy, and definitely not lying, cheating hypocrites.

I'm sure there are some tory candidates with integrity and honour, but I can't think of any.

burtthebike wrote:

Nonsense.  We all know that tories are honest, truthful, straightforward and trustworthy, and definitely not lying, cheating hypocrites.

Yeah, true. Just like the Lib Dems, Liebour, Brexit party etc etc etc. Politicians lie, full stop, no matter which party they stand for.

biker phil wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Nonsense.  We all know that tories are honest, truthful, straightforward and trustworthy, and definitely not lying, cheating hypocrites.

Yeah, true. Just like the Lib Dems, Liebour, Brexit party etc etc etc. Politicians lie, full stop, no matter which party they stand for.

So BoJo lies every time he opens his mouth, while no-one has been able to show a single untruth told by Corbyn, but you equate them in moral terms?  You're either dumber than most trees or a tory apologist.