Amsterdam cyclists get signs asking them not to jump red lights

As a resident of NL, I can pretty much guarantee this will have little to zero effect. Exactly as you say Chris, without enforcement it will be seen as little more than a recommendation. A bit like firework bans in specific areas that aren't enforced and therefore completely ignored.

They installed countdown timers in India around 2010-ish, ostensibly to reduce instances of people jumping red (or, alarmingly, pushing through when red has been showing for several seconds if it 'seems safe, which it never really is, but India).

After they were installed, these instances did reduce...

...People now simply jump the lights when the timer reaches 10 seconds.

That happens over here a lot with the pedestrian countdown timers, waiting at a light in London you can hear the revs behind you starting to build as the pedestrian warning counter descends. Plenty of people going on zero for the pedestrian counter rather then waiting for the flashing amber.

As the blog I linked to about countdown timers notes - in the Dutch system the countdown is for how long the pedestrian / cyclist had to wait for a green, not how long they have to cross. Small but important difference and shows this is clearly more for the vulnerable road user's convenience. (noting that of course all traffic lights and pedestrian crossings are "motor vehicle infra" at the end of the day - only required *because* motor vehicles).

In the Indian example vthejk mentions you can see that this may not be a good idea to bring in for motorists because them "jumping the gun" has more potential to cause problems for others.

Anything that tells a motorist to 'get ready' will be treated as 'go'.

There's a traffic light on Brighton's seafront which flashes amber for motors while having a flashing green man for Peds. The obvious result is that cars just plough through the green man.

Once I saw a poor naive honest motorists break, and stop following the convoy, when the light finally turned green; only to be immediately honked by the veteran motorists behind.

Totally makes sense - sorry for the slightly lazy comment as I didn't read your linked article fully, just thought this was relevant. I suppose as well that's another point corroborating the fact that when pedestrians and cyclists 'jump' signals, the main deterrent is that doing so risks our own lives.....so most pedestrians and cyclists are unlikely to illegally jump signals aren't we.

ChuckSneed wrote:

Not sure how allowing us to cycle through red lights makes it safer for us. That sounds like the exact opposite of safer. You realise the light is red because other traffic is using the road? You know, traffic that if you go through a red light will either have to suddenly stop for you, or will just run you over. Is that a hill you want to die on?

...?

I think you'll find other people in the thread provided plenty of evidence that it's safe for us to go through red lights. It's called an Idaho stop, you should look it up. My viewpoint was therefore changed, so I'm confused as to why the Dutch government are doing this.

ChuckSneed wrote:

I think you'll find other people in the thread provided plenty of evidence that it's safe for us to go through red lights. It's called an Idaho stop, you should look it up. My viewpoint was therefore changed, so I'm confused as to why the Dutch government are doing this.

The trouble with internet posts is that it is impossible to convey tone, so I am unsure whether this a world first of someone having their opinion changed by strangers on the internet, or if ChuckSneed has cranked sarcasm up to 11.

I approve either way, sarcasm is highly under rated.

wycombewheeler wrote:

I approve either way, sarcasm is highly under rated.

Yeah, we could really do with more sarcasm round here

hawkinspeter wrote:

Yeah, we could really do with more sarcasm round here

Inflection is reaaally hard to convey online, too.

I'm well aware of what the Idaho stop is. I'm one of the ones who tried explaining it to you in a thread a couple of weeks ago. You were less than receptive.

I think perhaps you don't realise just how massive the cycle traffic is in Amsterdam, especially in certain parts at "spitsuren" (rush hours). The problem isn't cyclists avoiding conflict with cars, but with other cyclists. As the article states:

"[the Parnassusweg / Boelelaan crossing] is ... een van de drukste kruisingen van de stad, met tal van auto's, trams en vooral veel fietsers."

-> "[the Parnassusweg / Boelelaan crossing] is one of the busiest crossings in the city, with many cars, trams and above all many cyclists."

The issue is cyclists are getting into conflict with each other, with some struggling to cross safely even when they have green - cause of the other cyclists ignoring red.

This, for sure is a genuine issue. Bike lanes in the cities become a continuous stream of bikes at rush hour (more so in the evening than the morning), especially where there are business districts. Amsterdam Zuid has a huge business district, I've been there a few times (and now my partner's office is there).

It's interesting to see how new issues arise as "problems of success" e.g. now how do we manage all these cyclists / we need to restrict motor traffic to make more room for cycling!

Here's an interesting example of some Dutch creativity when you have an increasing number of people on bikes.  Note how this works with human behaviour rather than against it.

Very good article. Love the diagonal line solution, taking advantage of the natural speed differences of cyclists as they set off across a crossing.

Also " The Dutch aren’t very good at forming an orderly queue". This is a _huge_ difference between the Brits and the Dutch (hell, between the Brits and almost anyone else!). Where you see cycle commuters forming orderly and very long queues at cycle-traffic lights in London... that just doesn't happen in NL.

Cycle paths can be /incredibly/ busy in NL at peak times. Especially in big cities. Especially around any kind of school or university at certain times - and that's true even in towns. It can be chaos at times. But it works much, much better than having everyone in cars.

It's easy really, you just need a population that considers cycling perfectly normal. The dutch culture of not coddling people possibly is a factor too - parents generally don't go "Oh my little precious, there are drops of rain outside, I'd better drive you to school" in NL.