"Cyclists think they can do whatever they want": Viral video shows moment driver uses bike lane to queue-jump gridlocked traffic; Wout van Aert's "calculated risk" for classics; DJ Dom Whiting announces first cycling event of 2024 + more on the live blog

essexian wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/29/ministers-to-consult-on-dou...

Madness if this goes ahead and one more step towards the need for a cycling licence for all riders.

250w is suffient. If you want more power, get a motorbike. 

I'm more concerned about the possible legalisation of throttle control - that really would make them motorbikes.  (I would support throttle control for, say, up to 4kmph to help get started, though.)

Steve K wrote:

(I would support throttle control for, say, up to 4kmph to help get started, though.)

It's already legal to have throttle assist up to 6 km/h.

Rendel Harris wrote:

Steve K wrote:

(I would support throttle control for, say, up to 4kmph to help get started, though.)

It's already legal to have throttle assist up to 6 km/h.

Thanks - I wasn't sure.  My Tern GSD has walk assist, but you can't use that to get going when you've got a kid on the back, it's a hill, and you're in the wrong gear.

Steve K wrote:

Thanks - I wasn't sure.  My Tern GSD has walk assist, but you can't use that to get going when you've got a kid on the back, it's a hill, and you're in the wrong gear.

I do think there could be a case for allowing a little more power for heavier cargo bikes in order to meet the sort of situation you describe, just to make sure that they retain what for me is one of the greatest advantages of an ebike, namely being able to pull away quickly from the lights and avoid becoming entangled in traffic across junctions.

Rendel Harris wrote:

Steve K wrote:

(I would support throttle control for, say, up to 4kmph to help get started, though.)

It's already legal to have throttle assist up to 6 km/h.

I know this was explained to me previously but I obviously wasn't paying enough attention. I thought we agreed that Twist and Goes were legal without a license up to 15.5mph if they were "EU Type Approved". 

The throttle assitance up to 6kmh I think is designed to get a Pedal Assisted e-bike started.

IanMK wrote:

I know this was explained to me previously but I obviously wasn't paying enough attention. I thought we agreed that Twist and Goes were legal without a license up to 15.5mph if they were "EU Type Approved".

I believe that is the case, however as I understand it virtually no ebike manufacturers have gone for type approval because this requires the same EU regulation as for motorcycles and cars and is extremely expensive, being designed for large factories producing high-value vehicles rather than bicycle manufacturers.

Steve K wrote:

I would support throttle control for, say, up to 4kmph to help get started, though.

I think 4,000mph is probably a little too high.

I put this on the forum this morning. Seems very odd that this is the government's priority re.cycling and active travel. Tend to agree that this will be a backward step for all cyclists, e- or otherwise and may open the door for licensing of all ebikes. Why not just enforce against illegal electric motorbikes?

 Why not just enforce against illegal electric motorbikes?

Because they can't be bothered to do the work and they have a permanent get-out dodge: insufficient resources, squire! They are prepared to do a lot more work sitting at a desk complaining about how they're too busy to do the work, than they would if they were actually working at doing their jobs. Why don't they actually prosecute these, instead of ignoring them because everybody does it?https://upride.cc/incident/pj23vmc_honda125_redlightcross/

https://upride.cc/incident/g16dht_hgvtrainer_redlightcross/

https://upride.cc/incident/k7ddy_audia4_redlightpass/

Why don't they deal with this vehicle, parked outside the pub (the Eagle and Child) 100 yards from Garstang Police Station several nights a week, which has had no MOT or VED for 6 1/2 years, failed MOT for serious defects and which now has a broken right rear light cluster? Because they can't be bothered, or they have a private arrangement with the driver. I informed the police 7 months ago and the PCC over 3 months ago

As someone who uses an ebike for commuting and heavy loads I would absolutely be against this move, 250 W/15.5 mph is plenty. Any increase would simply make it more likely for demands for licensing and insurance for ebikes to be listened to, and once they had got that in place what's to stop them coming after unpowered bikes (which I also use and love)? The evidence of what happens when people, especially young men, get their hands on ebikes, or rather on illegal electric motorcycles, faster and more powerful than the current limits can be seen on the streets of London every day, and it's not pretty.

It is probably designed to say 'look what we can do now we're not in the EU'.

HarrogateSpa wrote:

It is probably designed to say 'look what we can do now we're not in the EU'.

Everything is more expensive and travel is more difficult and business are moving their headquarters abroad and we have higher levels of immigration with lower levels of skilled immigrants and....

But look! We made the roads even less safe for cyclists and pedestrians!!

Certain rules on transport power are even stricter, especially as there is crossover between e-bikes and e-scooters and motor powered mobility aids in the way the old law is written. The development and uptake of pedal assist and hybrid with throttle power ebikes have murkied the waters and the categories are not as clear cut any more.

The law is outdated and needs bringing in line with modern varieties of personal transport, but it's not easy defining fixed categories, especially with hybrid assist/throttle e-bikes. and defining when and where they are legal to use.

I watch a curious old channel on Youtube called Lawrie's Mechanical Marvels. He mostly looks at vintage industrial railway equipment, road and farm vehicles etc. However in a bid to get fitter, he (albeit sponsored) got a new e-bike that has both throttle and pedal assist. Whilst reviewing the bike, whilst on the road, only used the pedal assist, however when on private land he used the throttle in those areas. He has fully acted within the law on this, and on that front, if everyone who owned one acted similarly, there wouldn't be a problem. Along the same train of thought, you could easily have a controllable restrictor fitted to a more powerful assist only ebike, that is on whilst on public roads it is on, but on private land can be turned off to unrestricted mode.

The problem lies wherein that such products are subject to human input and therefore human error - People can legally buy this equipment but either don't know or ignore the laws they could be breaking every single time they use them.

Matthew Acton-Varian wrote:

Whilst reviewing the bike, whilst on the road, only used the pedal assist, however when on private land he used the throttle in those areas. He has fully acted within the law on this, and on that front, if everyone who owned one acted similarly, there wouldn't be a problem.

I don't believe that is actually the case, it is not legal to have a bike on the road that can be powered solely by a throttle (apart from the type exemptions mentioned elsewhere on this thread), even if you're not using it. Willing to stand corrected of course but I'm pretty sure that in the (highly unlikely) event of a police officer stopping a rider and checking their bike "I never touch it when I'm on the road" would not be accepted as justification for having an illegal throttle, one could still be charged with taking an illegal ebike on the road without any necessity to prove that you were actually using the throttle. This pretty much makes sense as far as I can see, trying to claim that you never touch the throttle so shouldn't be sanctioned would be a bit like being caught with illegally tinted side windows and trying to claim that you only ever drove with the windows wound down, it would get pretty short shrift I'm sure.

But the bikes are legal to purchase in the UK, the same can be said for e-scooters. They come with warnings over following local/national laws etc, but it is user discrepancy as to whether they choose to follow the law. The act of tinting front windows is not; you will not find reputable tinting businesses willing to tint front windows to an illegal level and most instances its the act of the car owner using a home kit. It's not a fair comparison.

Also have you seen a city centre on a Friday/Saturday evening recently? The amount of bicycle couriers using these bikes are astonishingly large, and all of them regularly use the throttle if not exclusively use it. The rules are unenforceable as they currently stand, otherwise these services would be getting shut down.

I wasn't commenting on whether or not the law is sensible or fit for purpose, I was simply pointing out that the gentleman you mentioned who thinks he is completely within the law to ride an ebike that is capable of achieving its top speed solely under control of a throttle on the public highway provided he doesn't touch the throttle is mistaken; as the law currently stands an ebike is not legal for road use if it has such a throttle, whether or not the throttle is actually being used.

Whether the rules are enforceable or not, requires the police to actually first choose to try.

Great flex ...
I can't get a range extender battery for my Italian bike because we're not in the EU.

Fanfeckingtastic.

With great power comes great responsibility.

Will this extra power be used wisely ?

I remember a quote from a wood working forum, "it's quite hard to cut your fingers off with a hand saw".

As power increases, the skills required to control it become more important, untrained and careless use of this could be a problem especially if they are mixing it with pedestrians on shared use space etc.

I don't own an e-bike but can see the appeal - I think if I was a teenager again, I'd be hankering after an electric scooter or e-bike and thinking of ways to get rid of the 15mph limit and the need to pedal.  Fortunately I'm not a teenager and I'm pretty sure my dad wouldn't have let me have one anyway

My local most high profile EAPC user says "get one whilst you are still fit-ish", so you are ready for when you need it.

Yeah - hope we're not just seizing on this idea because e.g. that's how they do it in the US.

As Cudgel of this parish (IIRC?) noted - also in the context of woodworking - in the US the ability to "do it your way" / "get more power" is apparently much more valued than "kit that helps you do things safely".  With the expected litany of "accidents" from those with a more "frontier" perspective...

It is being considered because we live in an era of rampant capitalism fueled by successive conservative governments, if that needed saying.  Any proposal that might generate more sales to the masses is given serious consideration, pretty much above all else it seems. Money is at the root of pretty much every decision.  It cetainly isn't society.

Many a good point being made here. Me, I can't think why they're considering this. 500w, throttle controlled but still 28kmh? Good luck enforcing that. Unrestricted 500w would be nuts, those bikes would be laughing at 40mph limits let alone 30mph.

If you live somewhere challenging ie, edge of the lake or peak district you'll quickly find uk rated and made 250w motors aren't quite up to it especially if you're carrying your weekly shop could find your amp rating isn't enough. I have a grey build from the laws changing 350w torque motor (400rpm max) I wasn't able to electronically restrict or install a pedal assist, instead I made my own gear set to compensate and lower motor out put.

Some stats I'm a short rider 10.5 st my ride weighs 40-45kg (included weight: battery, motor, controller & frame)

Paging wtjs !!!

If you live somewhere challenging ie, edge of the lake or peak district you'll quickly find uk rated and made 250w motors aren't quite up to it especially if you're carrying your weekly shop could find your amp rating isn't enough

Motor OK? Check. Amps OK? Check

You're all thinking of it from a road perspective (I know, the website title!).

500w off road with even heavier bikes is going to ruin the trails completely.  

It seems really dumb idea, can't see what value the govt see in it, not even sure I buy the cargo bike reasoning, remember 90% of the UK outside the Westminster bubble don't have cycle lanes they could use, they'd be on pavements or mixing in with traffic like the rest of us on the road.

My two cents:

I am reluctant to simply extend the current EAPC regulations to higher powered vehicles. I think the current regulations work for vehicles that are relatively slow and light - like a normal bicycle but with a bit of assistance. 

However, I do think there is merit in encouraging uptake of vehicles that are smaller, lighter and less polluting than typical cars/vans for last-mile deliveries and personal mobility. To some extent we already have this for motorpeds - low powered mopeds can be riden unsupervised from age 16, with a provisional licence and CBT. 

I think this is something that other countries do - I think the Netherlands has "S-pedelecs" (top assissted speed 45km/h), whilst the French have "voiturettes". 

That said, there is certainly a balancing act - whilst overall those types of vehicles are better than typical cars/vans, they must remain lower in the travel hierarchy to public transport and active travel. 

It should really by straightforward.

E-assist up to 25kph is good for a normal pedal cycle solo and treat it like a non-motorised vehicle as we do now so you can use dedicated cycling infrastructure 

If you need more power to pull a heavier load such as a big cargo bike or you want to travel faster then that's really a motorbike (or moped as they were basically the same, restricted speed, pedals, number plate, helmet, lights) and you need a licence, etc as you would with a moped. This would mean that you can't use infrastructure for non-motorised vehicles so no cycle paths, shared paths etc but you could use a bus lane if motorcycles were allowed.

Also, if your employment relies on you using the public highway, you should have proof that you have at least a basic understanding of how to use the highway safely, just like you would in ANY other workplace with risks involved. This would be either a provisional licence and CBT or Bikeability (Cycling Proficiency as was years ago) if you complied with e-assist above.