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Motorbike rider hits pensioner, so Twitter blames cyclists; Delivery cyclists jump red lights to avoid losing income, says Deliveroo rider; Jordan Peterson on LTNs; New year, same train bike storage woes; Estonian pro hit by driver + more on the live blog

Happy New Year everyone! As the last, forgotten Quality Street sits forlornly in the corner of the tin, Ryan Mallon’s back to blow away the cobwebs with the first live blog of 2023
Tue, Jan 03, 2023 09:51
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SUMMARY

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Motorbike rider hits pensioner, so Twitter blames cyclists; Delivery cyclists jump red lights to avoid losing income, says Deliveroo rider; Jordan Peterson on LTNs; New year, same train bike storage woes; Estonian pro hit by driver + more on the live blogPedestrian hit by motorcyclist - but Twitter blames cyclists (Ross McCulloch, Twitter)
03 January 2023, 12:58
Motorbike rider hits pensioner – so Twitter blames cyclists, naturally

Is it too early for a quick game of anti-cycling bingo?

2023 may only be in its infancy, but that hasn’t stopped the usual anti-cycling brigade on social media readying their by-now worn and tattered bingo cards, markers, and balls.

This week’s game comes courtesy of a clip that shows the potential hazards associated with the controversial and oft discussed but otherwise legal act of filtering.

But – and here’s the twist – the video posted to Twitter rather clearly depicts a collision between an elderly pedestrian and a motorcyclist, not a cyclist.

However, proving they’ll stop at nothing (including recognising the bleedingly obvious or actually watching the clip before ferociously typing away their hot takes) in order to bash cyclists, our dedicated bingo callers just couldn’t resist the first opportunity of 2023:

Bonus points for those veterans bringing up the Highway Code, road tax, and cycling IDs: 

What time is it? I give up already…

03 January 2023, 17:14
2023 Ribble Gravel 725 outdoor - 1
No, Ribble is not going bust

You may have noticed a few rumblings on social media in recent days, claiming that bike manufacturer Ribble was on the verge of being struck off.

According to documents shared on Instagram and Twitter, Companies House has told Ribble’s holding company, Cyclesport North Limited, that “unless cause is shown to the contrary, the Company will be struck off the register and dissolved not less than two months from the date shown above [3 January 2023]”.

However, when contacted by road.cc for comment, Ribble said that the notice was simply due to a delay in the company filing its accounts with Companies House.

“Due to the availability of our auditors to complete their work on the 2021 accounts, there has been a delay in filing the accounts with Companies House,” Ribble told us.

“The 2021 accounts will be filed shortly and will show strong progression on the previous year.”

Well, that’s that cleared up then.

03 January 2023, 16:01
Wout van Aert, Dublin UCI Cyclocross World Cup 2022 (Alex Whitehead/SWpix.com)
“This situation is not healthy”: Cyclocross legend Sven Nys worried about Van Aert and Van der Poel’s high appearance fees, as three-time world champion Zdeněk Štybar says he raced “for free” over Christmas

Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel’s long-held status as the two undisputed stars of cyclocross was underlined during today’s epic, to-and-fro tussle at the latest round of the X2O Badkamers Trophy in Herentals.

Despite – SPOILER ALERT (yes, we’ve had complaints) – the race’s rather anticlimactic finale, as a very late rear wheel puncture denied Van Aert a potential hometown triumph, with Van der Poel sheepishly taking what was still a thoroughly deserved win, this afternoon showcased the very best of a rivalry that has defined an era both on the ‘cross field and on the road.

However, some within the cyclocross scene have begun to express concerns about the duo’s hegemony over the sport, and the vast sums they are currently making in appearance fees, which two-time world champion Sven Nys claims has created a potentially unhealthy and unsustainable situation for the sport.

2022 Mathieu van der Poel Canyon Inflite CF SLX - Gaetan Flamme, Sportpic Agency (sportpic-agency.com) - 1

Gaetan Flamme, Sportpic Agency

According to Het Nieuwsblad, Van der Poel is said to command a fee of €15,000 for a major race, while Van Aert can be paid up to €20,000. The third member of the ‘cross Big Three, world champion Tom Pidcock, can secure an appearance fee of €8,000 from race organisers.

However, several cyclocross riders have complained to the Belgian press about the apparent inequality within the sport, arguing that, while they understood the reasons behind Van der Poel and Van Aert’s top earnings, if the current situation continued many pros would not be able to carry on racing at the highest level.

Zdeněk Štybar, a three-time world cyclocross champion who joined Team Jayco-AlUla from Quick Step earlier this week, told Het Nieuwsblad that he raced the recent Azencross race in Loenhout, won by Van Aert, for free after the organisers told him that there was no money left in the kitty.

Specialized CRX Stybar_DSC08976

“I’m at the start here for free”, the 37-year-old Czech classics star said. “Apparently there was no more budget. But I do this for the love of the sport and because it is good preparation for the road season.”

One rider anonymously told the Belgian paper that there would be only ten riders left competing on the cyclocross circuit if the distribution of appearance money continued to be weighted so heavily towards a select few of the sport’s biggest names.

One of the biggest ‘cross stars of the 2000s and early 2010s – the era before WVA and MVDP – Sven Nys agreed with these concerns, and argued that some of the money should be kept aside for “real crossers”.

Cyclo-cross world champion Sven Nys at Koppenberg 2013 (CC licensed on Flickr by Alain Dutilleul)

“This situation is not healthy,” the two-time world champion said. “I know that many guys have been at the start for free in recent weeks and will continue to be.

“We urgently need to put our heads together to brainstorm where we want to go with our sport. Because I’m afraid it can’t go on like this.”

While some commentators have noted that the big three’s earnings reflect the added publicity they generate for cyclocross, Tomas Van Den Spiegel, of race organiser Flanders Classics, has warned against overestimating the Van der Poel and Van Aert effect on ticket sales and the popularity of the sport.

"Their presence makes a difference, but you shouldn't overestimate it either,” Van Den Spiegel told Sporza over Christmas.

“We notice a 10 to 20 percent difference in ticket sales, no more than that. People love this sport anyway.”

03 January 2023, 15:11
Groan… Tour de France launches its “first ever digital collection”

In another edition of ‘Thing we wish were left behind in 2022’, Tour de France organisers ASO have announced that they are launching the race’s “first ever digital collection”, featuring “21 collectible stages”.

Ugh… Didn’t we just go through all this a few weeks ago with Velon?

> Velon launches “cycling’s first fan universe” – and yes, it involves cryptocurrency

Anyway, apparently the whole thing is based around a 21-day-long series of “online quests” (ASO’s words, not mine), starting on 9 January, which will allow fans who have signed up to the Discord community to take part in a range of quizzes and social media challenges, to accumulate points and win stages (which are essentially virtual medals).

According to ASO, “at the end of the quest period and thanks to the web3 technology on which these collectibles are based, you will be able to exchange, sell and acquire missing stages directly to other members of the community.”

Ah, our good friend, web3, we meet again. The Tour organisers say the digital collectibles will be hosted through the blockchain technology Polygon, which apparently – though every blockchain merchant is coming out with this kind of line these days – is “particularly well-reputed for its very limited energy consumption”. Whatever you say…

Tour de France digital collection

However, there is one actual, real-life aspect of all this virtual nonsense which could be very exciting. 21 ‘unique’ virtual badges are available for each stage (these will be black, not bronze), and whoever owns them will gain access to a VIP experience, such as travelling in a staff car, at the Tour de France itself.

The bronze badges will also give users the opportunity to win some other, presumably less exciting perks.

I’m sure this kind of competition could have been arranged without all of the blockchain, NFT, and web3 stuff tacked on, but hey, it is cycling after all.

03 January 2023, 14:27
Tom Pidcock misses cyclocross showdown with Mathieu van der Poel and Wout van Aert due to injuries sustained in spectacular New Year’s Day crash

Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel are currently going toe-to-toe in today’s X2O Badkamers Trofee race in Herentals, the latest instalment in their scintillating festive campaign.

However, the third member of the ‘cross Big Three™, world champion Tom Pidcock, has been forced to pull out of today’s muddy action, which comes just two days after his spectacular crash during the GP Sven Nys on New Year’s Day, which left the Ineos Grenadiers rider with a nasty cut and bruising on his left leg.

> Tom Pidcock flies over barriers in “stupid crash” while leading cyclocross race 

“I’ve ridden the bike after the crash but I’m not quite ready to race today,” Pidcock said in a statement earlier today.

 “I’ve had a good block of races this festive period so there are plenty of positives to be taken from it. Now is a good time to draw a line and reset.”

The 23-year-old also confirmed on Sunday that he will not defend his rainbow jersey at next month’s cyclocross worlds in Hoogerheide, in favour of focusing on the spring classics on the road.

03 January 2023, 13:51
Reader reaction: Your lunchtime thoughts on delivery cyclists, bike storage on trains, and that “idiot” Jordan Peterson

There’s so much going on in the comments section today, you’d almost think it was the first live blog of the year or something…

First up, on the subject of red light jumping delivery riders, road.cc reader sapperadam wrote:

Delivery cyclists breaking the rules of the road to get their deliveries done quicker is not news.  Delivery van drivers do exactly the same thing.  The problem is not cyclists, and neither really is it the van driver's fault.  It's the time pressures put on the staff doing the deliveries that encourages this behaviour.

But the management don't care about that because they're not the ones who will get it in the neck.  They only care about the bottom line and gig working in any kind of delivery field should be outlawed. 

The big thing though, is that a Deliveroo or Uber Eats cyclist breaking the rules doesn't risk too much, whereas a van driver doing so, risks much, much more.  And there are quite a few reports of accidents involving such vehicles including some fatalities.  Whereas if there was less pressure on the drivers (and riders), they would be less likely to break the rules and therefore less likely to be in an accident.

GWR bike storage (One Woman Two Wheels, Twitter)

The train user’s critique of GWR’s “crap” bike storage facilities has sparked a lengthy debate in the comments, with ShutTheFrontDawes, who has been “pretty pleased by the cycle spaces offered on GWR trains” in recent years, writing: “I'm not sure why the Twitter post is trying to criticise people for filling up the bike space. It's for luggage too. The sign is right there in the photo! Oh no! The bike and luggage space is being used for *gasps* luggage!! Better complain!”

Rendel Harris, however, argued that “the point the poster was trying to make was not criticising people for (legitimately, as you point out) using the shared space for their luggage; they were criticising the train company for making the space bikes and luggage instead of bikes only.

“They could easily take out a couple of seats to make enough room for that luggage and leave space for bikes, but that would cut it into the profit margin.”

“There's nowhere else that the bikes are allowed to be stored,” hawkinpeter added. “So if the bike space is filled, then you'd either have to stand with your bike by the doorways (and hope the staff don't kick you off the train) or get the next train. Luggage is allowed to be stored anywhere, even on the seats.”

Finally, the little onion had this to say about everybody’s favourite Canadian controversialist weighing in on the LTN debate:

Peterson says: ‘idiot tyrannical bureaucrats can decide by fiat where you're "allowed" to drive is perhaps the worst imaginable perversion of that idea’.

So how do the roads get put their in the first place? Doesn't that come down to "idiot tyrannical bureaucrats" deciding that this might be a place where people might be allowed to drive (and walk/cycle/wheel etc)? But somehow tweaking that initial decision is now tyranny?

The man is an idiot.

03 January 2023, 13:30
What’s on your 2023 tech wish list?
03 January 2023, 12:37
03 January 2023, 12:17
“When you put everything into that one effort”: Zwift user loses a shoe

Mark, from the Zwift Riders Facebook group, certainly put some effort into this morning’s spin on the turbo:

Zwift rider loses a shoe (Zwift Riders, Facebook)

Although to be fair, the same thing happened to my old school shoes on the way home from a funeral last month…

03 January 2023, 11:53
Jordan Peterson weighs in on LTNs and traffic restrictions (and it’s every bit as insightful as you’d expect it to be)

It was only a matter of time before Jordan Peterson popped up like a bad smell on the live blog.

On New Year’s Eve, the outspoken right-wing academic and media personality took some time off from banging on about the ‘crisis of masculinity’, political correctness, and post-modern neo-Marxists studying anthropology to turn his attention to the next big state-sanctioned conspiracy threatening to… errrr, make our day-to-day lives a more pleasant experience:

Let’s just say Peterson’s latest tirade has gone down as well as expected…

03 January 2023, 11:14
Madis Mihkels, 2021 junior road world championships (Alex Whitehead/SWpix.com)
Estonian pro suffers “deep” back wound after being struck by motorist during training ride

Intermarché-Circus-Wanty’s 19-year-old Madis Mihkels received hospital treatment for a “deep cut” in his back after being struck by a motorist while training near his hometown of Tartu, Estonian, yesterday.

Mihkels, who turned pro with Intermarché at the start of 2023 after racing for the team as a stagiaire since August, finished fourth at last year’s U23 world championships road race in Wollongong, before taking a strong sixth at the Gran Piemonte in October, behind leading WorldTour riders Iván García Cortina, Matej Mohorič, and Alberto Bettiol.

According to a social media post from the Belgian squad this morning, Mihkels suffered a “deep cut wound in his back”, which required stitches, after being hit by the driver. However, fortunately the 19-year-old doesn’t appear to have suffered any more serious injuries or broken any bones in the collision. 

“Madis will focus on healing as we wish him a smooth and complete recovery soon,” Intermarché wrote.

03 January 2023, 10:53
03 January 2023, 10:26
New year, same “usual crap from greedy train companies”

It may be the first live blog of 2023, but that doesn’t mean we can’t roll out an old favourite…

The inflammatory issue of bikes, space, and trains (at least if you’re road.cc editor Jack) is, of course, one we’ve covered frequently on the site, from Cycling UK’s dismissal of London North Eastern Railway’s storage provision in October 2019 as “downright dangerous” to editor Jack Sexty’s rather blunt critique of GWR’s offering on a special edition of the live blog later that month.

Come on GWR, it’s 2023, sort it out…

03 January 2023, 09:54
Happy New Year from Frankie

This April will mark six years since the tragic death of 2011 Giro d’Italia winner Michele Scarponi, who was killed in a collision involving a lorry driver in April 2017.

So it was nice to start the new year by learning that the Italian’s favourite training partner, the blue and yellow macaw Frankie, is still a big Astana fan:

03 January 2023, 09:01
800px-Peaceful_Parkway_Deliveroo_(26967441621)
Most delivery cyclists jump red lights and ride on pavement to avoid losing income, says Deliveroo rider

Last month on the road.cc Podcast, we interviewed British ultra-distance cycling legend – and food delivery rider – Steve Abraham, who shared some rather scathing thoughts about Deliveroo and the online company’s relationship with its riders.

Steve, who works as a food courier in Milton Keynes, discussed with road.cc editor Jack the advantages and drawbacks of delivering for firms such as Deliveroo and Uber Eats, where drivers and riders are engaged as independent contractors and paid by the number of jobs they do, rather than being taken on as employees, with all the benefits that would entail, such as a minimum wage and holiday and sick pay.

> “You're just collateral” — Ultra-cycling legend Steve Abraham on Deliveroo and the gig economy

“If you want to work for a good company and have a good, steady income… don’t work for Deliveroo,” Steve said.

“Deliveroo and all the app companies, they’re rotten, dirty businesses. They’re out to make money by sitting around doing nothing, that’s what they are. Alright, they’re technology people, that’s just written a computer programme to make money for them, that’s the whole idea.

“And you’re just collateral – they need you to operate, if you stop working, they don’t care about you. They’re not looking out for you. They pretend to, but they don’t care about you. They’re not good companies to work for… I just like the job.”

Deliveroo_Rider_Taking_The_Lane_In_Bristol_(32611782273)

Another issue associated with delivering food by bike for massive app-based companies not mentioned by Steve is the pressure placed on cyclists to make money by completing as many deliveries as possible in one shift.

This pressure, according to one Edinburgh-based Deliveroo rider, can result in couriers breaking several traffic laws, such as jumping red lights and riding on pavements (or, as we’ve seen plenty of times on road.cc, riding on the motorway), just to make ends meet.

“I do not have any issue with laws, and as a recreational club cyclist, I feel some obligation to not give cyclists a bad name and fuel anti-cyclist attitudes held by many motorists. Riding for Deliveroo, I have the opposite mindset,” the cyclist told the Scotsman.

> Pro triathlete and Ironman champ Joe Skipper turns Deliveroo cyclist

“If every road law was to be followed, it could easily add five minutes to a delivery, which would cut my income by 20 percent.

“My normal ‘Roo’ daytime income averages £10-12 per hour. To reduce that by 20 percent is therefore not realistic. Most Roo cyclists will, like me, not follow all road laws.

“A delivery rider will have a different attitude to the rules from a recreational cyclist. I don’t think most care about the law or what anyone else’s opinion of their cycling is. In 99 percent of breaches, no third party suffers any kind of inconvenience.”

face mask - deliveroo x cambridge face mask 3.PNG

> New study suggests high injury rate in food delivery cyclists is under-reported

The cyclist continued: “Running a red light can be exceptionally dangerous, particularly taking an amber gamble just as lights are changing to red. There are, however, numerous times when there are no cars in sight and riding through a red light is safe and has zero effect on any other party. If the light is on the green man and there are no pedestrians, there is again no impact on anyone.

“Other than being safer than riding up a one-way street the wrong way, I will use the pavement to avoid cobbles, especially when wet. Cobbles in many parts of Edinburgh are not properly maintained, very uneven and rather unsafe.

“Breaking a lot of rules will, I have no doubt at all, be a safer alternative. It will enable distances to be shortened and some major busy and dangerous junctions avoided all together. The downside would be the rider may put themselves at more risk.

“If the police were able to force delivery riders to follow every rule, many I imagine would pack it in.”

Ryan Mallon

After obtaining a PhD, lecturing, and hosting a history podcast at Queen’s University Belfast, Ryan joined road.cc in December 2021 and since then has kept the site’s readers and listeners informed and enthralled (well at least occasionally) on news, the live blog, and the road.cc Podcast. After boarding a wrong bus at the world championships and ruining a good pair of jeans at the cyclocross, he now serves as road.cc’s senior news writer. Before his foray into cycling journalism, he wallowed in the equally pitiless world of academia, where he wrote a book about Victorian politics and droned on about cycling and bikes to classes of bored students (while taking every chance he could get to talk about cycling in print or on the radio). He can be found riding his bike very slowly around the narrow, scenic country lanes of Co. Down.

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131 comments

Avatar
chrisonabike replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
3 likes

I'd vote for some of the aggressive, logic-impaired shouty drivers featured on road.cc as owning the worst-driven vehicles on the road ("you were in my way and holding me up for a couple of seconds so now I'm going to stop you for a ten-minute fight!")

Avatar
jh2727 replied to chrisonabike | 2 years ago
2 likes

chrisonatrike wrote:

I'd vote for some of the aggressive, logic-impaired shouty drivers featured on road.cc as owning the worst-driven vehicles on the road ("you were in my way and holding me up for a couple of seconds so now I'm going to stop you for a ten-minute fight!")

The most incredible one I ever had was the driver who shout abuse at me for forcing him to overtake me when there was oncoming traffic - this was about half a mile down the road, as I passed him when he was queue for the lights (I'd estimate that he was about 4 changes away from the front of the queue, which inturn would put him about 3 further changes away from the front of the next queue - it was pre-covid 'rush-hour' traffic)

Avatar
Awavey | 2 years ago
4 likes

Im not sure how GWR are expected to just "sort it out", they dont own the trains they operate and these ones are expected to have a lifespan of upto 30 years, its down to the DfT to mandate there is more accessible bicycle space, and then down to the staff on the trains to ensure its kept empty.

but practically we know theres neither the political will or desire from train companies to enact it.

Avatar
hawkinspeter replied to Awavey | 2 years ago
7 likes

Awavey wrote:

Im not sure how GWR are expected to just "sort it out", they dont own the trains they operate and these ones are expected to have a lifespan of upto 30 years, its down to the DfT to mandate there is more accessible bicycle space, and then down to the staff on the trains to ensure its kept empty.

but practically we know theres neither the political will or desire from train companies to enact it.

Do they not own their trains? They made a big fuss about their modern redesign of their trains a while back, but those were the ones with a small broom cupboard for storing bikes that were only suitable for a small subset of bikes and the owner had to be able to hoist their bike onto the small hook.

I think it's about time we recognised that private ownership of the train companies has been an abject failure in terms of transport (probably successful in lining the pockets of a tiny minority of people though).

Avatar
BalladOfStruth replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
3 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think it's about time we recognised that private ownership of the train companies has been an abject failure in terms of transport (probably successful in lining the pockets of a tiny minority of people though).

Exactly. I saw some story earlier on Reddit where the Govt. are telling the rail unions that “millions with shun rail travel for years” because of the strikes. Whereas, if the trains were a little better thought out, more reliable, and cheaper, there are millions of people that would either drive a hell of a lot less, or not drive at all.

I work remotely, but occasionally I need to travel ~170 miles to be onsite and I usually stay in a hotel when doing so. I live within cycling distance of a train station, and the office and hotel are withing cycling distance of a train station. If I could reliably get my bike on the train and not get screwed over on one of the many changes, I literally would not need to own a car.

Avatar
andystow replied to BalladOfStruth | 2 years ago
1 like

BalladOfStruth wrote:

I work remotely, but occasionally I need to travel ~170 miles to be onsite and I usually stay in a hotel when doing so. I live within cycling distance of a train station, and the office and hotel are withing cycling distance of a train station. If I could reliably get my bike on the train and not get screwed over on one of the many changes, I literally would not need to own a car.

Brompton.

Avatar
BalladOfStruth replied to andystow | 2 years ago
0 likes

I don't fancy 7 miles of hilly, NSL Carmarthenshire country lanes on a Brompton. I certainly don't fancy the roads around the office (that are starting to resemble the surface of the moon) on those little wheels either - it was bad enough on a gravel bike when I lived there.

There are other reasons the train just isn't a reliable enough option - like not being able to take a bike on the commuter trains at all, so I need to avoid those. I can't wait until after the last commuter train to travel in the evening because that means a four-hour layover at midnight somewhere waiting for the trains to start back up in the morning (the first train after work leaves just after 20:30, will stop somewhere like Bristol at midnight and doesn't get in until nearly 05:00 the next morning). So I need to travel during the work day - this means booking a seat and being able to work on the train. But if one of the connections is delayed (like it almost always is) and I end up standing on a fully-booked subsequent train, I can't do that. Also, it's usually a technical meeting of some sort that I'd be going in for, so a delayed train would usually make it a wasted trip anyway.

Along with all the other minor niggles (like being too tall to fit in the seats on the TFW trains that make up the first leg of the journey), driving really is the only reliable option.

Avatar
Rendel Harris replied to BalladOfStruth | 2 years ago
1 like

BalladOfStruth wrote:

If I could reliably get my bike on the train and not get screwed over on one of the many changes, I literally would not need to own a car.

If you don't mind taking the wheels off, bike bag? I know someone who gets a very hit and miss service for bikes being allowed or not in the west country; she carries a very cheap thin bike bag (one of the type really meant just to keep the dust off) folded up in her panniers, if she's told she can't bring her bike on the train she goes round the corner, take the wheels off, shoves the bike in the bag and walks back in with it over her shoulder, gets on the train no questions asked.

Avatar
Awavey replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
3 likes

No, the new trains they made a fuss about with the small broom cupboard for bikes were actually spec'd by the DfT and bought by the taxpayer, they are then leased to GWR via a 3rd party who looks after maintenance with Hitachi. The DfTs sole main objective in the design was to increase seating capacity per train,and they added on average around 100 extra seats for roughly the same train length, hence the poor bike & luggage provision.

But then consequently because of the complicated design/build/ownership of those trains, it means GWR cant just modify them without DfT approval, because it would materially affect the targetted passenger capacity numbers of the trains and that would affect the leasing costs and the payback to the treasury, and so might render them less viable on other routes or with other train companies.

if anything it shows state involvement actually made things worse, because the government made a huge capital investment on these poorly designed trains, but are now stuck with them for literally decades to come.

Avatar
hawkinspeter replied to Awavey | 2 years ago
1 like

Awavey wrote:

No, the new trains they made a fuss about with the small broom cupboard for bikes were actually spec'd by the DfT and bought by the taxpayer, they are then leased to GWR via a 3rd party who looks after maintenance with Hitachi. The DfTs sole main objective in the design was to increase seating capacity per train,and they added on average around 100 extra seats for roughly the same train length, hence the poor bike & luggage provision.

But then consequently because of the complicated design/build/ownership of those trains, it means GWR cant just modify them without DfT approval, because it would materially affect the targetted passenger capacity numbers of the trains and that would affect the leasing costs and the payback to the treasury, and so might render them less viable on other routes or with other train companies.

if anything it shows state involvement actually made things worse, because the government made a huge capital investment on these poorly designed trains, but are now stuck with them for literally decades to come.

Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds to me like the DfT were blinkered in just designing purely for passenger numbers rather than looking at the larger transport picture. It's peculiar because that's usually a business decision to optimise for ticket revenue. I suspect they brought in a specialist bicycle storage expert to design those cupboards, but unfortunately they'd never seen a real bicycle before, although they had made lots of pretty crayon drawings of them.

Avatar
chrisonabike replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
1 like

Apparently they look like this, although because you rarely see them about on the roads it's difficult to say for sure:

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Gimpl replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
0 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think it's about time we recognised that private ownership of the train companies has been an abject failure in terms of transport (probably successful in lining the pockets of a tiny minority of people though).

As I have pointed out to you previously, when it was British Rail it was an utter disaster. Terrible trains, terrible punctuality, awful service, a complete cluster fuck. 

In addition the staff are now much better compensated according to my B-in-Law train driver who was around under BR too. 

Avatar
hawkinspeter replied to Gimpl | 2 years ago
1 like

Gimpl wrote:

As I have pointed out to you previously, when it was British Rail it was an utter disaster. Terrible trains, terrible punctuality, awful service, a complete cluster fuck. 

In addition the staff are now much better compensated according to my B-in-Law train driver who was around under BR too. 

I recall you giving your opinion on that.

I'd propose that train services can be run poorly by both governments and private companies - neither has the monopoly on incompetence. However, private companies have goals that are not aligned with the public's, whereas governments should be aligned with serving the public (ignoring our current embarrassment of course).

According to the ONS, Northern Rail and East Coast train companies have effectively been re-nationalised: https://www.ft.com/content/1baa6b50-47ba-416e-b172-90a77a34c19d

There's also this plan on re-nationalisation: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/british-rail-to-be-nationalised-as-part-of-sweeping-tory-reforms-270312/

I'm not trying to say that the UK had brilliant trains back in the day, but that nationalising the train companies was poorly thought out and just ended up with the tax-payer losing out and the train customers faced with very high fares.

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Gimpl replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
0 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

I'm not trying to say that the UK had brilliant trains back in the day, but that nationalising the train companies was poorly thought out and just ended up with the tax-payer losing out and the train customers faced with very high fares.

Fares were high under BR too. Currently we have much better service, it's more reliable (believe it or not!), staff are remunerated better too and all of the stock is more modern and up to date (at least it is on the West Coast line that I travel on regularly). I fail to see how the tax payer is losing out. 

Avatar
JustTryingToGet... replied to Gimpl | 2 years ago
1 like
Gimpl wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

I'm not trying to say that the UK had brilliant trains back in the day, but that nationalising the train companies was poorly thought out and just ended up with the tax-payer losing out and the train customers faced with very high fares.

Fares were high under BR too. Currently we have much better service, it's more reliable (believe it or not!), staff are remunerated better too and all of the stock is more modern and up to date (at least it is on the West Coast line that I travel on regularly). I fail to see how the tax payer is losing out. 

I'm too young (humble brag) to remember trains under BR but I struggle to believe they were more reliable. The cancellations have been ludicrous... especially the true rate of cancellations including the ones cancelled before 10pm the previous day.

Obviously it's far easier to run trains on time when you make 30% of them disappear

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hawkinspeter replied to Gimpl | 2 years ago
1 like

Gimpl wrote:

Fares were high under BR too. Currently we have much better service, it's more reliable (believe it or not!), staff are remunerated better too and all of the stock is more modern and up to date (at least it is on the West Coast line that I travel on regularly). I fail to see how the tax payer is losing out. 

I don't object to the staff having better remuneration and conditions which is why I support their strikes. I'm not convinced that the modern trains are designed better (see previous rants about bike spaces), but there have been improvements.

In terms of fare prices, I found this older (2013) article on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21056703

//ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/mcs/media/images/65430000/gif/_65430205_railfares_barchart.gif)

Notice that the season tickets have kept more or less in line with inflation due to them being regulated, whereas the unregulated tickets are much more expensive.

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Rendel Harris replied to Awavey | 2 years ago
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I thought they do own the trains, just not the track?

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mark1a replied to Rendel Harris | 2 years ago
9 likes

Train operating companies don't own trains, they're owned by separate rolling stock leasing companies who in turn leases them to the incumbent franchise holder/concession. It's way more complicated than it needs to be IMO. 

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Rendel Harris replied to mark1a | 2 years ago
1 like

Thanks (and Rod and Awavey) I stand corrected. I'm sure though that the train companies must be allowed to make some modifications to the stock in terms of taking seats out to accommodate bikes or luggage if they wish?

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brooksby replied to mark1a | 2 years ago
2 likes

mark1a wrote:

Train operating companies don't own trains, they're owned by separate rolling stock leasing companies who in turn leases them to the incumbent franchise holder/concession. It's way more complicated than it needs to be IMO. 

I wonder if that's to do with some sort of tax avoidance scheme...  A borrows money from B, then lends that to C, then C lends money back to A so nobody ever makes a profit and no tax is due.  Or is that me getting up on the cynical side of the bed this morning?

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Secret_squirrel replied to brooksby | 2 years ago
3 likes

brooksby wrote:

I wonder if that's to do with some sort of tax avoidance scheme...  A borrows money from B, then lends that to C, then C lends money back to A so nobody ever makes a profit and no tax is due.  Or is that me getting up on the cynical side of the bed this morning?

I suspect its less about tax avoidance and more about more opportunities to leach money from the public purse....

(TBF leasing of transport via specialist leasors or similar is common in other transport modes (aircraft for example) - the correct question to ask is whether the actual owner is taking on the same degree of commercial risk they would take on were the railways not a public asset. Its also more common for only a percentage of a fleet to be leased with some handback options)

Extreme example - I used to work for a major airline - in one dispute with a leasing company they actually flew aircraft out to that big aircraft graveyard in Nevada - and just said "they're you're problem now".

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nosferatu1001 replied to Secret_squirrel | 2 years ago
1 like

Given rail franchises can and do swap around, leasing trains from ROSCOs does make sense - you can't alter the structure of the franchises if they all own their own stock.  
 

howevrr, ROSCOs make far too much money and arguably are bad value for money. 

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Rod Marton replied to Rendel Harris | 2 years ago
7 likes

I believe that they lease the trains rather than own them. To be fair to GWR, my understanding is that they didn't have a lot of input to the design, and this was largely down to DfT. So we know who to blame.

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cyclisto | 2 years ago
1 like

Cyclists and red lights is a grey area for me, should not be punished by draconian laws. It is a bit weird for me that pedestrians in UK can pass through a red light with no legal consequences and cyclists with the practically the same weight and sometimes no greater speed than a jogger will have to pay fines.

It is also a gray area because in many cases in other countries crossing red lights is allowed by cyclists and on the contrary there are cases where crossing red lights by pedestrians is fined.

Moreover a red light for a cyclist will require more effort to regain momentum than any other road user such as pedestrians or motor vehicle users, therefore it is a good reason to be more lenient.

So not the end of the world when crossing a red light on a 15kg bicycle and not on a 1200 kg vehicle and if we aim to increase commuting by cycling we should really rethink what promotes sustainable transport. Similarly I do believe that many one way roads could accomodate the width of a contraflow cyclist, something that Deliveroo cyclists already do.

That laws rethinking process though, should include some cycle favouring laws such as the double abreast riding that is allowed in UK but it seems really dangerous for me, is illegal where I ride now and seriously interrupts motor vehicle traffic, whereas it mostly favors recreation MAMILs that may even drive to get to a nice road cycling route and not bicycle commuters.

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Hirsute replied to cyclisto | 2 years ago
14 likes

Cycling 2 abreast is not dangerous and does not interrupt traffic flow - see diagram and surrey police https://twitter.com/surreyroadcops/status/1035083543016366080

 

//pbs.twimg.com/media/Dl1a_ZOW4AATC7Y.jpg)

 

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cyclisto replied to Hirsute | 2 years ago
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hirsute wrote:

Cycling 2 abreast is not dangerous and does not interrupt traffic flow - see diagram and surrey police https://twitter.com/surreyroadcops/status

Yes I have seen all the nice neat and tidy charts and drawings, but in real life at two way roads a car and cyclist and a contraflow car can most likely squeeze in a two lane road if a car driver error of judgement happens, whereas this is practically impossible with two bicycles abreast. There are videos that if all cyclists cycled near the edge of the road no cyclists would have been hurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abqysSwOcIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSSz1vxO0kc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k37H_qLLUA

I know that some will say "it is clearly a car driver error or even malicious intention" but I don't really care, if you are dead or injured, you don't care whose fault is and I definitely don't want to be a martyr to prove a point.

 

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Awavey replied to cyclisto | 2 years ago
16 likes

are you kidding with those videos ? the first one the SUV driver almost looks like theyre deliberately steering into the cyclist they hit, despite having a completely clear lane to use, the second even if I was riding solo theres no goddamn way Id be riding in the gutter like they were, and third and last the driver appears to be on the wrong side of the road or is cutting the corner.

none of them have got near to remotely proving any valid point about riding two abreast being more dangerous than if they had just "cycled near the edge".

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cyclisto replied to Awavey | 2 years ago
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Awavey wrote:

are you kidding with those videos ? ...

No if if all cyclists cycled near the edge of the road no cyclists would have been hurt, I see nothing wrong with that sentence.

If I was injured in any of these accidents, yes I could be very pissed with driver and I would say to him "Are you kidding??" along with many other not so nice words, but still I would be injured because possibly malicious driving, innatentive/drunk driving and drivers getting on the middle road just happen. I don't want to say anyone "you see I am the right one" just reach my destination unharmed.

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chrisonabike replied to cyclisto | 2 years ago
1 like

It sounds like what you're actually saying is "cyclists shouldn't be on the road".  I can actually agree with this BUT - and it is a huge but - only if there is then space for cycling which is:

actually and perceptably safer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swqaAIkGtpA

AND more attractive / social

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2016/08/mass-cycling-requires-socia...

AND more convenient (goes everwhere that people want to go and allows for efficient / fast cycling)

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2015/10/cycle-paths-providing-effic...

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Hirsute replied to cyclisto | 2 years ago
8 likes

I not really sure what those videos are supposed to show or demonstrate. In the second, they were not even on the road but to the left of the lane marking.

Your first sentence needs an edit as it doesn't quite make sense with the 'if a car driver error of judgement happens' phrase.

 

 

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