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Near Miss of the Day 476: Learner driver pulls onto roundabout in front of cyclist
Today’s near miss sees a learner driver pull onto a roundabout into a cyclist’s path. The driver failed to stop and so Ben reported it to South Wales Police. He says he was then told by an officer that he was at fault.
The incident occurred at the junction of Bridge Street and Bridge Road in Cardiff. Ben was going straight on when a motorist in a British School of Motoring (BSM) car pulled out in front of him.
Ben said he was told by an officer over the phone that, "the driver entered the roundabout first so there is nothing we can do as you are at fault."
Ben said: “In my opinion the force failed to acknowledge dangerous driving, failing to give way to the right, failing to stop and failing to report an incident.
“Disappointed is an understatement and I think this response is very telling of the force’s attitude towards cyclists and other vulnerable users of the road.”
> Near Miss of the Day turns 100 - Why do we do the feature and what have we learnt from it?
Over the years road.cc has reported on literally hundreds of close passes and near misses involving badly driven vehicles from every corner of the country – so many, in fact, that we’ve decided to turn the phenomenon into a regular feature on the site. One day hopefully we will run out of close passes and near misses to report on, but until that happy day arrives, Near Miss of the Day will keep rolling on.
If you’ve caught on camera a close encounter of the uncomfortable kind with another road user that you’d like to share with the wider cycling community please send it to us at info [at] road.cc or send us a message via the road.cc Facebook page.
If the video is on YouTube, please send us a link, if not we can add any footage you supply to our YouTube channel as an unlisted video (so it won't show up on searches).
Please also let us know whether you contacted the police and if so what their reaction was, as well as the reaction of the vehicle operator if it was a bus, lorry or van with company markings etc.
> What to do if you capture a near miss or close pass (or worse) on camera while cycling
Alex has written for more cricket publications than the rest of the road.cc team combined. Despite the apparent evidence of this picture, he doesn't especially like cake.
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95 comments
Mini roundabouts, and flashing of headlamps, two things where what the HWC says and what actually goes on are two different things.
In my experience most motorists approaching a mini roundabout do give way to traffic approaching from the right. This extends to vehicles approaching but not yet on the mini roundabout. But there is ambiguity over exactly how far from the roundabout this courtesy extends. Certainly if a car approaching from the right is merely a second or so from entering the roundabout, it tends to be given priority, and the car to the left of it waits.
Of course the car on the right is not yet on the roundabout, so roundabout rules do not yet apply, so the car on the left is free to broach the roundabout, yet most don't because the result is costly.
The trouble with mini roundabouts is that the priorities change abruptly depending on who crossed the line first, and only metres apart from one another.
So the only way they can work is if all parties are cautious and cooperative. Barrelling down on a car you can already see will be in your path is antagonistic, especially when it is a learner who needs to be cut some slack, and even more especially when, as the police correctly discerned, you are in the wrong.
The HC is absolutely clear, "Give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights". That's it. There is no statement that the traffic has to be on the roundabout. It warns to be mindful of traffic that is already on the roundabout that may not signal intentions correctly.
It's really not difficult, but Dumb and even Dumber still don't understand 'right of way'. Mind you one of those barnacles was struggling to understand what a right was the other day, so no suprrise there.
Well, according to the government publication on mini roundabouts, section 2.1, which specifically references the relevant legislation:
"Vehicles entering the junction must give way to vehicles approaching from the right, circulating the central island."
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
according to that section, this isn't a mini roundabout, because it's got street furniture on a kerbed island. But there's a blue mini roundabout sign on the approach to it - which is in conflict with the regulations - so it's all the councils fault!
edit: after reading (and re-reading) the regs, you are correct about the cyclist being at fault as they crossed the give way after the learner driver. It's another area where the highway code is a bit vague and could do with some clearer wording:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/your-story/many-people-get-confused-abou...
Actually if those regs are correct it is a "Small Roundabout" and not a Mini one so it now falls under "should give way to traffic on the right unless told otherwise" and back to nniff. However as it is a should, It is not enforced by road laws so back to being a knock for knock and not a specific fault of either.
This is where the HWC is vague. The difference between a mini and a small roundabout is the blue circulating arrow sign changes the give way line from a 'should' to a 'must'.
However, in the regs, both a mini and a small roundabout talk about giving way to traffic circulating on the roundabout carriageway. So, it's not just a case of giving way to the right:
However going back to THAT particular roundabout, it is such a legal nightmare as even the road markings you show above is the wrong type to be associated with the indicated Road Sign. It is not one or the other, it is both the sign AND the road markings.
I still back my original assessment. Rare occaison when only honour codes* were broken and nothing illegal from both parties.
Yep, road markings are all wrong, so legal loophole lawyer would have a field day. Point is, whether the roundabout is mini or normal, determining priority is not just give way to the right.
I agree with you that there's nothing from either party that the police would be interested in.
This example has further reinforced my utter hatred of mini/small roundabouts and made me think I need to be even more careful around them.
From what we see in the video, this looks like the mini roundabout is there to allow vehicles to get out of that junction by taking the priority away from the direction that the cyclist was travelling. We have one near me that is similar and you still get drivers barely slowing down for it from one direction. The problem is that it's difficult to see them coming until you are actually on the roundabout so they feel that you've pulled out on them and then the abuse starts......
Since when did 'give way' become a race to get your wheels over the line before the other vehicle arrives? If that were the case, every incident in which an on-coming car struck the side of a vehicle that had crossed a give-way line would be the fault of the vehicle that could not stop, not the one that pulled out.
'Give way' means that you should allow an approaching vehicle to pass first, not 'get your wheels over the line before they arrive'.
Unsuprisingly, the principle of this simple rule has completely escaped the two barnacles on our hull, Dumb and even Dumber, below. Rather more suprisingly it has also escaped S Wales police, although I'd bet that if a police motorcyclist had been involved there might have been a different interpretation.
The fact that the learner stopped rather suggests that the noble instructor was perhaps less than happy with the executiion of the manoeuvre (this is called the benefit of the doubt). To clarify for Dumb and even Dumber, the doubt is about the competence of the instructor, not the driver.
Clearly there is a difference of opinion here, yet I fail to see how throwing insults around makes your point any the stronger.
Oh, that's easy. They seem not to like it when it's pointed it to them that if their brains were dynamite they couldn't even blow their noses, but they are happy to type-cast all cyclists as reckless and a hazard to both themselves and others.
This is a non-starter! Not good for the NMotD brand.
For once, I don't think this is anti cycling but just the vaguesness of who has right of way on roundabouts. if there is no giveway markings and all those single dashed lines do is demark where the road is. Look in the HC, it is all should not must for priorities and giving ways. he only times it is different is if there is a giveway or they are signal controlled. It is why most Insurances do knock for knock unless there is evidence of really dangerous things going on.
I'll admit that until I read the comments, I didn't know that priority on a roundabout is based on presence within the rings. I was under the impression that you should not enter a roundabout if that action would cause traffic to your right to change speed or direction.
The ambiguity is the main problem with them and why Police will barely lift an eyebrow if you mention the accident happened on an island whatever vehicle you are driving. When i was knocked down on one, every time I started to recount of the incident to an officer, it was only when I got to the point that the driver drove off without stopping when they suddenly went "ohhhh" and then got interested. Now I was well established on the island but as it is a Should and not a Must for some totally unfathomable reason.... There is only one MUST on the whole page and that is you MUST go around and not over the painted circle on a mini roundabout unless your vehicle is too long/large to do so.
There is a 'MUST' in the regs, but it's buried deep:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/16/made
I know, but that is in conjuntion with the short "chubby" dashed line. The road markings are normal roundabout long, thin dashed ones in this case. The sign alone is not enough. There is a bit about visibility but that is more on mud, rain or other vehicles currently covering it.
TBH, the HWC and the regs vaguenesses can be cleared up massively by painting proper Give Way markings on all roundabout junctions.
The MUST / SHOULD distinction isn't relevant when it comes to the legislation anyway - only in the HIghway Code, where MUST indicates that it's embedded in underlying legislation. In the legislation, the clause that "no vehicle shall proceed past the marking... at a time likely- to cause the driver of another vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident" has just as much weight as the one that they "...must give priority...".
That makes sense. So in the regs, where it says 'should give way', it's the same as a 'must' in the HWC.
I guess the difficulty with a roundabout, is each lane onto it has a give way. So, the 'no vehicle shall proceed past the marking' applies as much to the vehicle approaching from the right as it does the vehicle that pulls out on the left. Much harder to prove fault than with a T-junction.
Institutionally anti cyclist. That is absolutely woeful from the police. Bung in an official complaint and get Cycling UK on the case, if you are a member.
The driver was on the roundabout first - by about half a second or less. But they should CLEARLY have looked to their right, and given way to their right. As per the highway code. Disgraceful
On the driver's part, either they didn't bother looking, or they looked and assumed that the bike was a stationary or slow moving object, so there was no need to give way to them.
The HC does say that, but it doesn't say vehicles entering MUST give way to vehicles approaching but not on the roundabout, so it isn't law. I'm fairly sure the law says that you must give way to vehicles already on the roundabout, but not approaching, so technically, the police are right.
Almost incredibly, the driver then nearly takes out the second cyclist.
I presume that the videographer hadn't slowed on their approach because they could see that there was nothing coming from their right?
It's true that the cyclist wasn't actually on the roundabout when the motorist pulled out, but I think onion has a point that
...although I'd probably correct that to just
Likely shaken and not thinking straight after the first incident. The instructor should never be letting them drive away at that point - never mind the legal issue of not stopping after a collision, they should recognise that there's a strong possibility that they won't be in a fit state to drive.
Assuming it was a learner driving, and not the instructor (hard to tell, but the tentative way they came on to the roundabout would suggest it was) I would guess they misjudged their ability to clear the junction before the bike rider got there, and would be inclined not to judge them too harshly for the mistake.
However, what was the instructor doing here? Why weren't they anticipating the potential for this and ready to stop the driver? And they certainly should know better than to let them drive away after the incident happened.
What possibilities are there for instructors to be held to account in situations like this, or can enforcement only ever be against the driver?
I'm not sure although it would be good to know. I had a leaner driver just pull out on me on a larger busy roundabout when i was going right. I'm not even sure if the driver even looked before the manouvre but from when I tried to get eye contact as she started the manouvre she was just looking dead straight at where her exit was across the island. Realising she wasn't looking I slowed right down to almost a dead stop. I'm always assumed the instructor just told her to go as he saw "the space" not judging my correct speed. It is always fun to almost come to a direct stop in the middle of a busy roundabout after being cut up. Get the gears right and then go and hope other cars have then seen you as they come around it.
You could submitt the footage to BSM with a complaint, also to the driving instructors professional body. DIA and MSA are the two main ones, they probably belong to one of them. As well as the driving instructros licencing authority, DVLA I believe.
It's the ADI registrar that one should complain to. The MSA and DIA are representative bodies. The DVSA run driving tests.
I doubt that the registrar would take action as the High Court have stated that learner drivers are responsible for their own actions, not their instructors. Instructors give advice and assistance and try to provide a safe route to practise on. They can't see everything and have to rely, to some extent and decreasingly so as lessons progress, on the driver.
But supervisors can also gets points for the learner's errors.
http://www.xtdriving.com/2016/11/24/supervising-a-learner-could-you-be-l...
The website link you provide deals with Lovelace v Fossum, which appears to have been in Canada in 1971 and Rubie v Falconer which appears to have been in Australia in 1940. I would suggest that their relevance to UK road traffic law is highly teneous and appear to be useful mainly for the guidance of foreign insurance company staff. Indeed the narrative for another case in Australia that referred to Rubie v Falconer contrasted that some states made supervision a vicarious liability whilst other states specifically did not.
It is currently possible in the UK to aid and abet a learner driver but that would be by means of a fairly substantial overt act. For example: Dad lets son drive dad's car knowing that there is no insurance. The offence code for dad would have a numerical code to show that he was 'supervising' when the offence(s) were committed.
As an aside; ask yourself what your liability is, as a full licence holder, if you were in a car and you didn't know that the driver hadn't passed their test. Perhaps a taxi driver or a friend. Would you expect punishment. Just a thought, but it's not as simple as we may think.
And lastly, were you aware that learners do not always need to have supervisors as examiners are exempted by statutory instrument.
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