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news
Four cyclists fined after Surrey Police stops group ride for ignoring red light (@SurreyRS/Twitter)Four cyclists fined as police force shares footage of group ride stopped for ignoring red light
A group ride in Surrey was stopped by police this weekend, with all four cyclists issued fixed penalty notices after "contravening a red traffic light".
In footage shared on social media by Surrey RoadSafe, a partnership between the county's police force and council "working to reduce the number of people killed and seriously injured on Surrey roads", the group of four riders are seen at the front of a queue of stationary traffic at a junction in Esher.
#VanguardRST stopped these 4 cyclists in Esher after they were observed contravening a red traffic light. FPN's issued to all.#vulnerableroadusers #fatal5 pic.twitter.com/np612MNx62
— Surrey RoadSafe (@SurreyRS) January 14, 2024
Turning right off Copsem Lane (A244) onto Milbourne Lane, the traffic lights are seen on red when the group made the turn at 8:40am on Saturday 13 January, according to the date and time seen on the police car's recording system.
As the riders made the right turn a police vehicle was being driven just behind, the driver rolling up to the stop line as the group turned across the junction, the police following moments before the group was stopped and issued fixed penalty notices.
"Vanguard Road Safety Team stopped these four cyclists in Esher after they were observed contravening a red traffic light," Surrey RoadSafe told followers on social media. "FPNs issued to all."
The video has been viewed more than 75,000 times since it was uploaded to social media this morning, sparking hundreds of replies. Some have questioned why the force chose to share a video showing the group already across the stop line, cycling lawyer for Leigh Day law firm Rory McCarron suggesting it would be "surely more dangerous for them to wait in the junction?"
> Should cyclists be allowed to ride through red lights? Campaigners split on safety benefits
"Why is this video unnecessarily cropped to show the cyclists already passed the stop line and not crossing this when the light is red?" he asked. "Surely more dangerous for them to wait in the junction? Highway Code: 'Red means 'Stop'. Wait behind the stop line on the carriageway'."
Replying to another response, he added: "I don't in any way dispute some cyclists contravene traffic signals and I don't endorse that in any way. If you are law enforcement posting offences for public awareness — make sure you show the actual offence being committed. This doesn't."
Another comment, from Dave McCraw, said: "It would be nice if the video showed an offence, since the way that junction works is for traffic to sit in the right lane past the white line at which point they are free to turn even on red. I'm sure it happened, but the video shows no offence."
"You should have shown the offence, that would have stopped all these challenges," a third response suggested. However, others have argued it would be more constructive to use the case as an example that cyclists jumping red lights are subject to police action too, the claim to the contrary often heard from certain anti-cycling types.
> "Why I skip red lights": Journalist makes the case for cyclists riding through reds
Real Gaz on a proper bike, author of the Cycling South Tyneside website, said: "Cycling Twitter can be its own worst enemy sometimes. Police post a video with some cyclists being done for crossing a red light. To the halfwits out there that's clear cut. Use it to show cyclists don't get a free pass, rather than arguing the far end of a fart."
road.cc contacted Surrey Police for comment but had not received a reply at the time of publication.
Despite the claims of some, we regularly see police action against cyclists ignoring red lights, a September 'Vulnerable Road User' initiative in Edinburgh resulting in cyclists fined.
In February 2022, officers in the London Borough of Hackney reported fining 18 cyclists during a 90-minute operation.
Dan is the road.cc news editor and joined in 2020 having previously written about nearly every other sport under the sun for the Express, and the weird and wonderful world of non-league football for The Non-League Paper. Dan has been at road.cc for four years and mainly writes news and tech articles as well as the occasional feature. He has hopefully kept you entertained on the live blog too.
Never fast enough to take things on the bike too seriously, when he's not working you'll find him exploring the south of England by two wheels at a leisurely weekend pace, or enjoying his favourite Scottish roads when visiting family. Sometimes he'll even load up the bags and ride up the whole way, he's a bit strange like that.
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84 comments
Why show anything at all if it's not done and dusted?
Police don't normally show footage (as opposed to stills) till after.
Ugh? The video doesn't show the cyclists going through the red light.
Stopping at Red is just another opportunity to show your legs off and improve take off speed, why cyclists do not do this amazes me! Missing out on vital training chances is only for the lazy/shoddy roadcrafter and is not what we are about!
Stopping at red lights is a pain, but if there's ever an accident, I want every advantage possible on my side. It also provides pissed off motorists with a bit less to be pissed off about.
Allowing bikes to stop in front of cars for increased visibility seems sensible, but variations like the "Idaho Stop" muddy the waters. If we all stop on red, there's less for anyone to be confused or argue about.
They would presumably all get 3 points for this, would they not?
I don't think so - it's a different offence.
Edit
https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-pedal-cycle-on-a-road-fail-to-comp...
A very interesting website. However, it says about a motorised vehicle red light offence: This offence carries a fine of £100 and three penalty points.
Well, it doesn't up here, as I have shown many times!
No, there's no mechanism for cycling offences to accrue penalty points on a driver's licence. In very extreme circumstances a licence can be suspended or revoked for cycling behaviour (but it has to be really extreme, riding the wrong way down the motorway after a bottle of Scotch extreme), but never points.
No, it's just a fine, unless something has changed since 1991
Strange to use a video that doesn't show them passing a red light.
All this argument about the moment the cyclists crossed the stop line! Rather different to the attitude of Lancashire Constabulary to my much better filmed RLJ offences by motorists which always also include the moment the change to amber occurs : No Response, No Action. RLJs at speed by motorists are essentially legalised in Lancashire
https://upride.cc/incident/pj23vmc_honda125_redlightcross/ PJ23 VMC
Reported to both OpSnap Lancs and LC's DoItOnline portals, because this was an opportunity to convince a learner biker not to crash red lights at speed, rather than convincing him that you can do what you like. As usual, no response from OSL, and the response from Force Control Room (which deals with DoItOnline) was simply to insist that these offences are reported to OSL
https://upride.cc/incident/g16dht_hgvtrainer_redlightcross/ G16 DHT
This is David Hartley Transport and Training of Lancaster. He trains people to drive with trailers! Picture below. Reported to OSL only. No response.
https://upride.cc/incident/k7ddy_audia4_redlightpass/ K7 DDY
It's a combination of the most lax and idle police force in the UK (OK, Police Scotland might be nearly as bad!) and an Audi driver- what do you expect? Reported to OSL only. No response
They should have opted for a 'top lawyer' to get them off on a technicality.
I was wondering if the red light was "established"...
Not to suggest anyone in Amerika might have a better idea, but why not just get English lawmakers to adopt the "Idaho stop'' and be done with this? Four bike-friendly states other than Idaho have now adopted that law because it gives motorists one less thing to complain about, and it makes roads safer.
The Idaho Stop has its problems.
Treating a red light as a (in Usonian) Yield would be better, because making a person riding a cycle physically stop unnecessarily loses all momentum.
I think in the UK there are currently bigger issues to fight.
the video is cropped because the mpv blocks the view of the cyclists in that lane till the police car gets to the front. All it would show is maybe when the lights changed
But its showing red and the position of the last in the group suggests to me it was absolutely red when they all crossed the line, they weren't in the junction gap waiting when the lights changed.
Especially given barely anyone stops on yellow thesedays, or even red it feels round here, and both the mpv has stopped and the car the other side has stopped and neither would have spotted the police presence till the last second.
Yeah you can argue wheres the harm, wheres the danger, I still maintain if its red light you stop, if anything just to show to other road users, I follow those rules.
I don't disagree that you stop on red but I have problems with the police assuming things that they didn't actually see. It doesn't matter what their position at the start of the clip suggests, innocent until proven guilty.
Fair point, but I'm presuming what the police claimed to see happening is enough evidence even without the video as backup.
As I thought their dashcams weren't always on, and were linked to blues & twos use.
The full video has now been produced and the cyclists were in the wrong, but if they didn't have the relevant video then just showing what they have is not good enough. At least road.cc got three pages of comments out of it!
Just another example of a police force using social media to highlight what the general public want to believe is a bigger problem than motorists doing the same or worse, to stir up shit...It's on par with local rag click bait.
I'm really done with giving a flying f### about cyclists crossing red lights. At any traffic light junction where the cyclist/s came to a complete stop, they could have just dismounted the bicycles, ran across with their bike (including across the white line), and it would have been completely legal. As soon as they do it with pedal power though it's suddenly illegal. The French actually recognise the insignificant danger posed by cyclists crossing red lights with their excellent yellow arrow signs at junctions, at least in Paris.
I'll start considering RLJ cyclists (such as myself now, after experiencing Paris myself, you won't be surprised to learn) an issue once they start causing multiple deaths a year on UK roads - IE never.
So the pedestrians using a pedestrian crossing correctly should just suck it up when some entitled halfwit comes barrelling through a red light when they're trying to cross?
I'd support a change in the law to allow cyclists to go through red lights in some, safer, situations (e.g. left turns). But everyone, especially pedestrians who are more vulnerable than cyclists, should be able to expect other road users to obey the law as it is rather than as they think it should be.
More and harsher penalties for shit drivers of course, but shit drivers don't make shit cycling acceptable.
I'm only speaking for myself. I don't cycle through crossing pedestrians. When I do go through a red light I've usually slowed down to walking pace if not stopped before I go again. This whole idea that despite having cycled tens thousands of miles over the past decade, including across the continent and in mulitple cities, never having crashed in to a pedestrian or vehicle through my own fault, yet I'm somehow I'm unable to judge what is a risk to myself or others is for the birds.
Maybe consider looking at how many deaths are caused by RLJ'ing cyclists vs motor vehicles. Between 2005 and 2014 in the UK it was 51 deaths thanks to motor vehicles, 0 caused by cyclists.
I'm sure you're very good at judging risk, but some people aren't and we have no way of knowing who is and who isn't. I see plenty of people online saying that they've taken their cars to Germany and driven at 140 mph on the autobahn which proves they are safe to do it over here. There are arguments for introducing Idaho stop type rules, but allowing people to break the law as it stands because they believe their judgement is good enough to do so isn't, in my opinion, a good idea. What's the old statistic, 95% of people think they are better than average drivers?
I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of the time in the UK it feels like local, central government, along with the police does not give a damn about the risks that cyclists face. We don't have an effective cycle network across British towns and cities.
Traffic lights weren't implemented for the sake of cyclists, and the only reason they apply to cyclists is becuase it's the simplest solution and if they didn't drivers would be very upset.
Cycling in the UK is a constant exercise in risk management, much more than walking or driving. Then suddenly when we approach a set of traffic lights we're told we're no longer capable.
I agree with most of what you are saying here. The problem is that the UK along with many other societies cannot cope with catching and punishing individual behaviour so we make laws which apply to everyone and while this inconveniences considerate and capable individuals it allows us to punish and therefore deter incapable and inconsiderate drivers thus leading to the saftey of the rest of us.
A recent exampe is cycling in pedestrian areas which has now been made illegal for everyone in some areas in order to allow the police to bring the real offenders to account.
Unfortunately this leads to a disproportionate number of the capable and considerate being caught when they do break the law because they don't just run away (eg hit and run) and accept the punishment rather than employ an amoral but capable lawyer to get them off the charge (recent sun in eyes case).
I don't know what the answer is but as things stand we need to campaign to get a law changed if we don't like it and accept the punishment if we choose to break it in the mean time.
I think the same is true for the highway code. We can't expect the police to bring drivers to account for ignoring, for example, the 1.5m rule if we don't accept being brought to account for not wearing a helmet or hi vis. The correct approach is to campaign to have these sections removed from the code or reworded and there is plenty of research evidence available to allow this to happen.
..
I most definitely can. Drivers staying away from me when overtaking obviously improves my safety, whereas helmets and high-vis are known to not be particularly effective in preventing 2 tons of metal from killing me.
Yes we can, because ignoring the 1.5 metre rule is frequently transgressing the law regarding careless/dangerous driving whereas not wearing a helmet or high vis whilst cycling is never against the law.
We can't expect the police to bring drivers to account.
Yes, that's pretty much it. We can't, even though we should, and they should. For blatant, indisputable offences they just don't and then say they're too busy. This is Jaguar XF FN19 FSY, no MOT since 15.9.23 and no VED since 1.9.22. I can guarantee there will be no police response and no action
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