Southampton bike lane to be ripped out after Tories win control of council

Southampton has been a marginal seat/council since the late 70s (previously strong Labour). Partly due to gerrymandering, partly due to an aging population. West of the city is much redder but was less so for this election because a lot of University students (who tend to vote non-Tory) weren't there. But it's always been complicated. Coming from a middle-class Labour household I could never understand why most of my mates at school ('80s) were from conservative-voting households. But then they bought Thatcher's dream - bought their council houses, got shares in British Gas and BT, etc.

A couple of Westminster elections in the last ten years have been won less than 200 votes on turnouts of 45,000 - 55,000.

eburtthebike wrote:

There must be readers of road.cc who vote tory; would some of them like to tell me why?  Is it that you like being lied to?  Or that you want the world to fry?  Or maybe you just love Boris?

Yep. If you are a cyclist you really shouldn't vote Tory. Since Labour lost Scotland we are all doomed to permanent Tory government.

Change will be much slower than the glaciers are melting, but we should all protest this and other dangerous Tory nonsense as loudly as possible.

joro wrote:

Yep. If you are a cyclist  decent human being, you really shouldn't vote Tory. 

TFTFY

And Southampton Uni has done the research to set this out starkley.  Southampton under the sea in 30 years time (probably need to adjust since this result) The areas of Southampton and Hampshire that could be underwater by 2050 | Daily Echo 

I voted Tory for the first time in my life (55 years old) at the last general election. I come from a very socialist, South Wales family that in the past had many union members and even a few Shop Stewards. 

It was a tactical vote to hopefully ensure that that absolute monster raving loony Corbyn got no where near being our political head. It came with a few sacrifices but I believe it was worth it in the long run for the good of the nation as a whole. Can you imagine the utter carnage that would have occured if he had been responsible for managing the Covid crisis let alone the broader economy?

Whilst I now live in Milton Keynes (still Labour controlled council) I follow the news in Wales every day. Bearing in mind the grumblings about how the pandemic was handled there I was quite surprised that Drakeford secured another term. 

In Milton Keynes we have arguably the best segregated, shared use network anywhere in the country. Whilst some routes are ok many are not well maintained at all. In winter, coming down from the station on NCN 51 (I think) you take your life in your hands with all the leaves etc that are just left there to rot. 

My point is this; no elected party is significantly better than any other. We will always find something to complain about. We have been in a unique position in this country to watch four different political parties handle a global pandemic - none have come out smelling of roses!

Gimpl wrote:

I voted Tory for the first time in my life (55 years old) at the last general election. I come from a very socialist, South Wales family that in the past had many union members and even a few Shop Stewards. 

It was a tactical vote to hopefully ensure that that absolute monster raving loony Corbyn got no where near being our political head. It came with a few sacrifices but I believe it was worth it in the long run for the good of the nation as a whole. Can you imagine the utter carnage that would have occured if he had been responsible for managing the Covid crisis let alone the broader economy?

Without wishing to cast aspersions, I'm kind of confused why a life long socialist would think that Corbyn's policies were anything other than very moderate, middle of the road, democratic socialist ones, just like they have in many other countries with successful economies and a much happier populace than the UK?  Or are you one of those DM reading socialists?

eburtthebike wrote:

I'm kind of confused why a life long socialist would think that Corbyn's policies were anything other than very moderate, middle of the road, democratic socialist ones,

You really are very funny.

Also - no need to be rude. 

Gimpl wrote:

You really are very funny.

Also - no need to be rude. 

Thank you, I'll be quoting your first sentence, even if the second baffles me.

Gimpl wrote:

I voted Tory for the first time in my life (55 years old) at the last general election. I come from a very socialist, South Wales family that in the past had many union members and even a few Shop Stewards. 

It was a tactical vote to hopefully ensure that that absolute monster raving loony Corbyn got no where near being our political head. It came with a few sacrifices but I believe it was worth it in the long run for the good of the nation as a whole. Can you imagine the utter carnage that would have occured if he had been responsible for managing the Covid crisis let alone the broader economy?

Whilst I now live in Milton Keynes (still Labour controlled council) I follow the news in Wales every day. Bearing in mind the grumblings about how the pandemic was handled there I was quite surprised that Drakeford secured another term. 

In Milton Keynes we have arguably the best segregated, shared use network anywhere in the country. Whilst some routes are ok many are not well maintained at all. In winter, coming down from the station on NCN 51 (I think) you take your life in your hands with all the leaves etc that are just left there to rot. 

My point is this; no elected party is significantly better than any other. We will always find something to complain about. We have been in a unique position in this country to watch four different political parties handle a global pandemic - none have come out smelling of roses!

A tactical vote that helped ensure no change from a monster raving loony tory gov with that clown and chief embarrasment Johnson at our head? If there is no appreciable difference in the parties (which is clearly not true) why make the effort of a deliberate vote for the status quo, one that has been shown to be viciously corrupt?

We're entitled to different opinions. 

Also you misquote me - I said no one party is significantly better than any other. They all have their strnghts and weaknesses. As Churchil once said - democracy is the least worst option! It's by no means perfect. 

Gimpl wrote:

We're entitled to different opinions. 

Why thank you....

Gimpl wrote:

Also you misquote me - I said no one party is significantly better than any other. They all have their strnghts and weaknesses. As Churchil once said - democracy is the least worst option! It's by no means perfect. 

I didn't quote you, but neither , I believe, did I misrepresent you. However I will now quote you as saying:

"It was a tactical vote to hopefully ensure that that absolute monster raving loony Corbyn got no where near being our political head".

You now follow up with:

"no one party is significantly better than any other. They all have their strnghts and weaknesses."

So which is it? And, again, why would you vote "tactically" to maintain a status quo of monumental incompetence (demonstrated by tories, not imagined of Corbyn) and despicable corruption (again, demonstrated not imagined)?

I'm not even going to even ask what strengths the current government have ....

Gimpl wrote:

My point is this; no elected party is significantly better than any other. 

No, except Tory voters have selected the one party that has so consistently and offensively got things wrong, on so many fronts, and at the cost of so many people at the vulnerable end of society.  It is significantly worse than any other.

The one thing they have got right in any recent event is the early procurement of vaccines.  Anything else I can think of has been the actions of others which they claim as their success, or has been dulled by their own incompetence and adherence to failed dogma.  Even furlough was selective and divisive, and until grants came through relatively recently (with rules that vary from LA to LA and use-it-or-lose-it rules that breed inconsistency) excluded many people in exposed situations.

This was a government that claimed to follow the science, yet acted a lot later than the scientists, watered down the scientific advice and, even accounting for different late 'winners' and varying counting methods, nearly took the crown for most deaths per capita.

This is a party whose biggest battles are within itself yet the fallout affects the nation: Brexit is a battle led on both sides by the same party; battles over lockdown vs libertarianism is fought within the ranks.

This is a party that takes our failings as a nation and projects blame onto assylum seekers, creating a self-declared hostile environment policy that repeatedly denies human rights.

This is a party that promsies local control then overrules the local decision-making it doesn't like (see climate change measures removed from Kent planning permissions... in favour of developers of which at least one is a Tory party donor.

This is a party led by a current prime minister who practically rejoices and laughs at legitimate criticism of his personal and party funding; whose ministers authorise grants to each other's consituency areas without any hint of irony.

It is a party that disgusts me to the point of physical revulsion.

It is a party that has given the people who acutally have saved the country, putting their own lives on the line day-in day-out, either a paultry pay rise (NHS) or none at all (other public servants).  This includes people working in health, care, and crisis management area.  In fact, hundreds of doctors face no jobs in August having led the frontline response.

I'm not a Corbyn supporter ether, for the record.  He was a useful backbencher, a voice of conscience (whether you agree with any of his views or not) that tests the idea at hand.  But he was incompetent as a party leader and would have been swamped by the practicalities of state leadership.

He is as nothing compared with the arrogance of a party that believes it is born to rule and rules for the benefit of the privileged.  Yet there is one born every minute.  If you are a CEO of a blue chip, landed, or independently wealthy, I understand why you might vote Tory.  If you are a man in the street, you are voting for the person who hits you over the head every time.

But, because this is a cycling web site, what bike would you recommend?

GMBasix wrote:

The one thing they have got right in any recent event is the early procurement of vaccines.

More accurately, what they got right was letting someone else decide what to do about vaccines. Though that's not a bad thing - governments probably ought to try this more often.

mdavidford wrote:

GMBasix wrote:

The one thing they have got right in any recent event is the early procurement of vaccines.

More accurately, what they got right was letting someone else decide what to do about vaccines. Though that's not a bad thing - governments probably ought to try this more often.

Accidentally competent

I live in Wales.

We have had a Labour government since 1997 and will be close to thirty years of Labour rule by the next Senedd election.

Welsh schools are ranked last in the UK by PISA.

Welsh NHS waiting lists are significantly longer than English equivalents.

Natural Resources Wales is mired in the stench of significant corruption.

All these issues are entirely devolved, that is the Welsh Government is entirely responsible for them. They set the budget, targets etc.

If Conservative government disgusts you so much come to Wales and enjoy the fruits of uninterrupted Labour rule for a generation.

If I had to only have one bike it'd probably be a Mason Aspect

Rich_cb wrote:

All these issues are entirely devolved, that is the Welsh Government is entirely responsible for them. They set the budget, targets etc.

Based on the funding available to them from national government.  Aside from other factors, devolved regimes also have significant rural economic issues. In Wales, these include collapsed primary industries that were dismantled without significant recovery schemes under [flicks back through  notes] oh yes: a Tory goverrnment. It is typical of Tory governments to make people believe that the failures are all people's own fault, niot the failings of governance that makes those decisions.

Rich_cb wrote:

If I had to only have one bike it's probably be a Mason Aspect

Hmmm. interesting choice

The question is, how long can you keep blaming the Tories?

It's been nearly a quarter of a century since they were in power in Wales. The miners strike ended in 1985.

Estonia, currently ranked first in Europe by PISA, was under Soviet occupation until 1991.

It's amazing what competent government can achieve.

The Welsh Government can increase the health and education budget if they want to.

In the last 5 years alone they've spent £250 million plus on a failing airport and thinking about building a road.

How many schools or hospitals would that have built?

You can rail against the Conservatives all you want but Wales is a salient reminder of the alternative.

Rich_cb wrote:

The question is, how long can you keep blaming the Tories?

Perpetually.  Hold my beer.

Rich_cb wrote:

It's been nearly a quarter of a century since they were in power in Wales. The miners strike ended in 1985.

The miners' strike was not the cause of the problem.  Indeed, coal mining is an industry that is long past its environmental justification.  The problem was, and is, the dismantling of a whole industry without significant efforts to instigate replacement industry or training for those displaced.  The impacts of that are not fixed quickly when communities and society have built up around the industries affected.  This is a feature replicated across the UK, too.  It's just that Wales is particularly hard-hit.

It is also a repeated trope of Tory messages to give insufficient funding for all sorts of activities, then blame the people charged with applying a budget with a failure to do anything about it.

Rich_cb wrote:

 Estonia, currently ranked first in Europe by PISA, was under Soviet occupation until 1991. It's amazing what competent government can achieve.

Last I checked, the Tories weren't in charge there.  However, I note that Estonia remains in the EU and continues to benefit from participation, as we would have, had not Tory-led idiots lied to the population so that 26% of the UK population voted to leave.  Wales has lost ERDF funding that contributed significant amounts to infrastructure, so now funding from central (UK) government has to be spent on health, education and infrastructure.  It only gets worse.

Rich_cb wrote:

The Welsh Government can increase the health and education budget if they want to.

"HM Treasury controls the overall level of public expenditure in the UK each year. A portion of the total funds raised throughout the UK and earmarked for public expenditure is allocated to Wales and this portion, known as the ‘block grant’, is the basis of the Welsh Government’s annual budget." (https://law.gov.wales/constitution-government/government-in-wales/financ...)

It doesn't matter how they move the numbers around if the number you start with is insufficient.  Wales does not have a national bank, or money tree as Theresa tried to pretend it wasn't.

Rich_cb wrote:

  You can rail against the Conservatives all you want

Thank you.

The Tories might not have been in charge in Estonia but they did have alternate occupations by the Soviets and Nazis for 50 years prior to independence.

Some might argue that was slightly worse.

They also had the economic fall out from the collapse of the USSR to deal with.

Nobody can argue that Estonia's situation in 1991 was better than Wales' in 1997.

Yet 30 years later they have the best education system in Europe.

After 24 years of Labour rule where does Wales rank?

We're not even the best in the UK let alone Europe.

The PISA rankings were last done in 2018 so you can't blame Brexit either. Wales was still recieving full EU funding at the time of the assessment.

Wales receives more funding per capita than England and more funding per capita than post industrial areas of England.

The problem is not the funding, The problem is the Welsh Labour Government.

They chose to spend quarter of a billion on not building a road and buying an airport.

They chose not to spend that money on Health and Education.

Wales also has the power to raise taxes and borrow money if the Welsh government needs more money.

They choose not to.

As a final note, I grew up in a deprived area of Wales that received Objective 1 funding, it was deprived when I left 20 years ago, it's still deprived now.
The EU funds achieved nothing.

As with the Welsh Government, after 20+ years of failure there is no harm whatsoever in trying a new approach.

We're last in the UK let alone Europe.

Is Wales last in Europe? Not from the results I have seen. 

And here is a report on what Estonia supposedly do well in Education compared to over here. 

Apologies, that was badly worded. I shall correct it.

I was going to say we're not even the best in the UK let alone Europe.

You are right Wales is not the worst in Europe but it is a long way from being the best.

Thanks for the article, Estonia does so many innovative things, I often think it's the ideal model for an independent Wales but, alas, I'm not confident we'll ever see such a dynamic government in Wales.

I'm not arguing that the Conservative government are paragons of virtue and competence, just that the most viable alternative, Labour, have a pretty impressive track record of incompetence, failure and corruption in Wales.

Power corrupts, twas ever thus.

Rich_cb wrote:

Power corrupts, twas ever thus.

But sometimes it wasn't the power; Boris the Liar was corrupt before he got power; he was sacked for lying, he made up total nonsense about the EU when he was a reporter etc, etc.

A politician who lies?

Have you told the papers Burt?

This will be front page news...

All politicians and most journalists lie.

Pretending that one side is somehow worse than the others is just partisan nonsense.

Boris has got a free holiday and some fancy new wallpaper.

What did Joe Anderson get?

Rich_cb wrote:

You can rail against the Conservatives all you want but Wales is a salient reminder of the alternative.

The alternative we want is competent govt that is not corrupt. The Tories are consistently failing to provide this, and have since the forties (and even then, well,....). The Tories are to blame for this, no one else. If the only thing that you have to support the Tories is that they are better than strawmen govts that only exist in fevered dreams, that in itself suggests that you know that they are dreadful too.

In the last 5 years alone they've spent £250 million plus on a failing airport and thinking about building a road.

In the past 9 months a certain government has spent / is spending £37billion on a failed test and trace system. Luckily they labeled it NHS so people will believe it is them and not the governement solely responsible for it. Luckily they put in place the wife of the Governments anti corruption champion so we know no cronyism or other corruption has accounted for any of that loss. 

Exactly - part of my point. None of them can cover themselves with glory. 

Whilst there is always "they are all as bad as each other", I do like that it is ok to be racist, mysogonistic, corrupt and a liar if you are a tory MP/Leader as it is expected, but not liking how the State of Israel is essentially abusing the Palestinians rights, religion and land is not allowed if you are Labour.

It is the same reasoning that people voted for Drumpf in America because Hilary might have done a bad thing with some emails.

And even if I agree with everyting you write it was still the least worst option!

Giant Defy 

Quote:

Can you imagine the utter carnage that would have occured if he had been responsible for managing the Covid crisis let alone the broader economy?

Whilst we don't know how he would have handled the recovery and vaccines, whilst he was still leader he was challenging why we still hadn't locked down and was only asking over 70's to self isolate, was calling on major support for people to be covered for rent and lost earnings and lots of other points well before the Government did them. Since then the Tories obviously did Universal Credit (furlough pay) and incresed Corporate Tax, both policies in Labours manifesto. Yes, you could argue that as opposition it is easier to say then to do, however I genuinely feel we might have not reached 40k dead in the initial wave last March with them in charge. Of course since he left as leader we don't know what else he would have claimed to do, but I doubt 50 billion wasted on cronies and private businesses would have occurred though under Labour. 

I voted Labour because of Corbyn - he was the best thing to happen in British politics for a generation - you are now seeing fallout from people leaving Labour in droves or simply not voting.