Eating, Carbs and Keto

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

why wouldn't they admit it? There's nothing illegal or wrong about it?

ConcordeCX wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

why wouldn't they admit it? There's nothing illegal or wrong about it?

Because they're probably sponsored by carb in a gel companies.

I too into coffee and cake to make a go of keto but I'd be interested to read a pro take on it.

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

why wouldn't they admit it? There's nothing illegal or wrong about it?

Because they're probably sponsored by carb in a gel companies. I too into coffee and cake to make a go of keto but I'd be interested to read a pro take on it.

ah, yes, of course. How naive of me!

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

I'm far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you've used your glycogen and anyone who's done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn't particularly new - less need to eat on long rides, you're losing weight - fat, especially - surely you join those dots.

Racing cyclists have 'always' known that they've needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We've known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman - you'd struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that's being fuelled somehow...

I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any 'self help' approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn't to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager.

But if it does both, great: horses for courses - some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it's good that it's working for you.

ianrobo wrote:

davel wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

I'm far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you've used your glycogen and anyone who's done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn't particularly new - less need to eat on long rides, you're losing weight - fat, especially - surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have 'always' known that they've needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We've known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman - you'd struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that's being fuelled somehow... I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any 'self help' approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn't to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses - some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it's good that it's working for you.

your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.

You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.

Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy. 

Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less 'stomach issues' than they used to have, I do wonder why ?

Of course ketogenesis just happens - you haven't switched it on, you've just got better at it. You don't have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either.

Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That's 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of 'stuff'. Where does the rest come from - fresh air?

I've never bonked on an ironman and most people who'll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those 'non-keto' plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?

ianrobo wrote:

davel wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

davel wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

I do suspect far more pro's in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.

I'm far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you've used your glycogen and anyone who's done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn't particularly new - less need to eat on long rides, you're losing weight - fat, especially - surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have 'always' known that they've needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We've known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman - you'd struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that's being fuelled somehow... I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any 'self help' approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn't to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses - some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it's good that it's working for you.

your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.

You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.

Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy. 

Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less 'stomach issues' than they used to have, I do wonder why ?

Of course ketogenesis just happens - you haven't switched it on, you've just got better at it. You don't have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either. Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That's 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of 'stuff'. Where does the rest come from - fresh air? I've never bonked on an ironman and most people who'll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those 'non-keto' plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?

fair points.

It does not just happen in the way you suggest, but you will find for a lot of people and maybe you can comment the Ultra end of sports they are already in Ketosis before they start an event through their training and eating. I could point you to famous Ultra marathon runners and I am sure you can read up about Prof Tim Noakes if you are not aware of him before.

If it 'just happened' then no one would ever bonk in an event would they ?

Should add of course the body makes it's own carbs from protein and carbs is the only macro nutrient the body makes.

Yeah I think we probably basically agree on the science - I noticed improvements via fasted rides.

'Just happens' over-simplifies it somewhat, but I'm assuming a level of training and adaptation in the cases we're talking about.

The thing I'm struggling with is this concept of being 'in ketosis', in the way that after 2 months you've reached Zen. I'm inclined to think it's a less binary process of just becoming a more adapted, efficient endurance athlete.

spinner98 wrote:

If it is soo wonderful then why are the top athletes still consuming carbs. Also where is your power data, you are just have anecdotal evidence, did your 5min power increase by 10 % or your 3 hour power increase by 10% or is it that you just 'feel' better. I would love to see this data as thus far no one is willing to share, not even Timmothy Noakes says which athletes are full keto. 

It didn't take long. 

Do you live and train like a top athlete? No. Do you compete against and beat top athletes? No. Is IanRobo claiming to do that? Not that I can see.

Have you tried it? If not then how do you know it doesn't work?

I'm all for healthy debate, debunking myths and marketing guff but your post is typical of the unhelpful, inflammatory bollocks some people feel they need to throw into these discussions.

Simon E wrote:

It didn't take long. 

Do you live and train like a top athlete? No. Do you compete against and beat top athletes? No. Is IanRobo claiming to do that? Not that I can see.

Have you tried it? If not then how do you know it doesn't work?

I'm all for healthy debate, debunking myths and marketing guff but your post is typical of the unhelpful, inflammatory bollocks some people feel they need to throw into these discussions.

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there's a world of nutrition research out there, in peer-reviewed publications. That's how you know whether or not things work, not by personal experience or by anectodal evidence of a single data point.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to ask why top athletes aren't using the latest magic/science given the resources available to them, and in the case of cycling the apparent willngness to do the dodgiest things to their bodies. And if they're not using it it seems reasonable to suppose that it's because it doesn't work, or because it has long-term ill effects.

it's interesting to read what ianrobo is doing, but on its own it's no proof of anything.

ConcordeCX wrote:

it's interesting to read what ianrobo is doing, but on its own it's no proof of anything.

I agree and no-one was suggesting otherwise. Tossing in a comment like spinner did is unhelpful.

Contributors can provide real-world experience by recreational riders that others can relate to.

If we all ignore such experience and make decisions based solely on reading research papers - which can be misleading, misinterpreted and/or later contradicted by others, both of which do happen - we would be much worse off.

Simon E wrote:

ConcordeCX wrote:

it's interesting to read what ianrobo is doing, but on its own it's no proof of anything.

I agree and no-one was suggesting otherwise. Tossing in a comment like spinner did is unhelpful.

Contributors can provide real-world experience by recreational riders that others can relate to.

If we all ignore such experience and make decisions based solely on reading research papers - which can be misleading, misinterpreted and/or later contradicted by others, both of which do happen - we would be much worse off.

well, with all due respect your reaction to spinner's reply was rather overdone given that he asked a reasonable question in a reasonable way. I can't see anyone suggesting that we make decisions solely on reading research papers or that we ignore the experience of contributors - you seem to be misinterpreting people's replies.

But if say Team Sky's nutritionists had read all the research for us, which I expect they have, and consequently required all their riders to go on this diet, or conversely not to go on this diet, then that would be a fact worth knowing, and ianrobo's experience would be even more interesting.

Therefore asking why the top athletes are not doing this seems to me like a reasonable question which did not deserve your response.

ConcordeCX wrote:

asking why the top athletes are not doing this seems to me like a reasonable question which did not deserve your response.

Disagree. spinner wasn't asking a question, the inference was that he/she knows what top athletes do without explanation yet brought nothing constructive to the topic.

ianrobo wrote:

BBB wrote:

Meanwhile overhelming majority of cyclists maintain their weight and fitness just as well or better without any "special" diets.

not special just not eating processed crap into your body.

Instead as you on a ride get desperate for food when carb stores run low - otherwise bonking or have to carry stuff, I carry on past you as you stuff yourself at a feed station or desperately looking for a shop.

The feeling of not having to have a gel or a crappy energy drink or bananas etc is great.

The choice is yours of course.

For carb just read sugar/glucose thats all carbs are ... nothing more

[Obi Wan voice]Be mindful of your ego, your gains are transitory. There are plenty of healthy carbs; please, the bananas are innocent. This diet may well have helped you, but snobbery is not a response to skepticism.  Until you are No. 1, the man in front of you still ate that Mars Bar and pasta bowl. No diet is perfect. I am glad you have improved upon yourself. You will be indeed a great marmotteer.[/Obi Wan]

Leviathan wrote:

I am guessing this is not compatible with being a vegan (not that I am one.) 

It may take more effort than if eating meat, fish, dairy etc but it's certainly not incompatible.