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Numb toes

by kil0ran
Wed, Jul 04, 2018 19:20
19

In the last couple of months I've started to tingling/numbness in my middle toes on both feet, although it is worse on the drive side. Usually kicks in after around 5 miles of relatively hard (for me) riding. I've got two pairs of different cycling shoes and two bikes. One bike has flats (DMR V12s) and the other has SPD/Flat hybrid pedals (Shimano T8000 touring pedals). Get numbness on both bikes.

One pair of shoes is around 4 years old and has served me well with absolutely no numbness issues, even on long rides (45 miles plus). Other pair is new, bought to replace the old pair which are starting to fall apart after years of commuting.

Given that it doesn't appear to be pedal, or bike, or shoe related any idea what's going on? I'm doing less miles per week than I was 6 months ago, but longer individual rides as I've stopped commuting. Typical ride is 10-20 miles. I'm improving my times quite a bit at the moment and I'm probably fitter than I've ever been but the numbness is really holding me back.

It typically takes several hours for the numbness to disappear, after a recent 20-miler it hadn't gone 24 hours later.

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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19 comments

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kil0ran | 6 years ago
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An update - new shoes have solved the issue. 

Shimano MT5s specifically, which use the same last ast the MT7s which were giving me most issues. As is usual with Shimano shoe sizing the number on the sole bears little relation to whether they'll actually fit. I had a 43 in the MT7s and have gone down to a 42 in the MT5s. Nominally I'm a 7.5 and in the MT5s a 41 just about fitted too, but wouldn't have left room for winter socks.

The uppers on the MT5s clearly have more volume than the MT7s so I would imagine that tightness over the top of the foot was causing the numbness. Crucial I think is that I have more side to side flex in the MT5s because they use laces and a velcro strap rather than a Boa. I had similar flex in the M088s which had been comfortable for years. 

Delighted to be finally comfortable on the bike after a summer limited to 10-15 milers. 

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HowardR | 6 years ago
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In my experience, cramp on the upper, outer calf is caused by the Bavarian Illuminati, where as cramp on the upper outer calf is due to the influance of The Lizard People - Pains in the buttocks are entirely the work of the 'deep state' embeded within the CIA. 

I would suggest that pain the toes can probably be put down to Prince Philip acting in leauge with David Brailsford.

I'm sorry...... I think I might have spent too long on the internet - I'm going to have a quite lie down now......

 

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nniff | 6 years ago
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In my experience, cramp on the upper, outer calf is linked to a saddle that is too high.  If the saddle is too high, there is also scope for messing around with the nerves that run down to your leg.

As a starter for ten, I'd lower your saddle.  One simple test  that I use is whether or not you can 'get on the rivet' effectively - ie if you really want to put some power down can you get down on the drops and move forward on the saddle and pedal in a circular motion (pedal circles not pistons).  If you can't drive your pedal powerfully down and back,  in a motion reminiscent of a bull pawing the ground, then your saddle is too high. Conversely, if that motion feels cramped, your saddle is too low.

Are the carnsk the same length as they were for your bike fit?  Finally, just because someone has measured you up, it doesn't guarantee a spot-on, niggle-free position, especially if the soggy carbon-based thing sitting on the saddle is changing shape

You might also benefit from some stiffer soled shoes

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kil0ran replied to nniff | 6 years ago
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nniff wrote:

In my experience, cramp on the upper, outer calf is linked to a saddle that is too high.  If the saddle is too high, there is also scope for messing around with the nerves that run down to your leg.

As a starter for ten, I'd lower your saddle.  One simple test  that I use is whether or not you can 'get on the rivet' effectively - ie if you really want to put some power down can you get down on the drops and move forward on the saddle and pedal in a circular motion (pedal circles not pistons).  If you can't drive your pedal powerfully down and back,  in a motion reminiscent of a bull pawing the ground, then your saddle is too high. Conversely, if that motion feels cramped, your saddle is too low.

Are the carnsk the same length as they were for your bike fit?  Finally, just because someone has measured you up, it doesn't guarantee a spot-on, niggle-free position, especially if the soggy carbon-based thing sitting on the saddle is changing shape

You might also benefit from some stiffer soled shoes

Cranks are the same length and the stack/reach of the new bike is identical to the old. Same contact points too.

Like the description about power whilst on the rivet I'll give that a go.

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Rich_cb | 6 years ago
1 like

Have a little look at this diagram, does your numbness correlate to any of the shaded areas shown?

It doesn't have to be exact, anatomy is quite variable.

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hawkinspeter replied to Rich_cb | 6 years ago
1 like

Rich_cb wrote:

Have a little look at this diagram, does your numbness correlate to any of the shaded areas shown? It doesn't have to be exact, anatomy is quite variable.

I'm glad you said that as I was worried about not having four legs and five feet.

HowardR wrote:

In my experience, cramp on the upper, outer calf is caused by the Bavarian Illuminati, where as cramp on the upper outer calf is due to the influance of The Lizard People - Pains in the buttocks are entirely the work of the 'deep state' embeded within the CIA. 

I would suggest that pain the toes can probably be put down to Prince Philip acting in leauge with David Brailsford.

I'm sorry...... I think I might have spent too long on the internet - I'm going to have a quite lie down now......

You're close, but you're not looking deep enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj2Vw5nbZfE

 

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kil0ran replied to Rich_cb | 6 years ago
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Rich_cb wrote:

Have a little look at this diagram, does your numbness correlate to any of the shaded areas shown? It doesn't have to be exact, anatomy is quite variable.

Areas shaded brown/buff/tan I would say is the majority of the numbness and stiffness. 

Definitely middle toe with a tiny amount in the toe next to the little toe plus superficial peroneal cramp plus stiffness in dorsal rami L1/L2/L3

Interestingly the numbness seems to progress throughout the day once off the bike. I work from home but being a bit of a posture-obsessive I bought my old work chair from my ex-employer and have the desk height exactly the same.

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PRSboy | 6 years ago
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Just a thought, but if you are fitter than you have been, then maybe the action of laying down more power through your feet than they are used to is causing the discomfort.

Do you do any work on pedalling technique?... this features a lot in some TrainerRoad workouts I've done, and they teach you to give each leg 'micro-rests' in part of the pedal stroke.  I've found practicing that can relieve numbness I suffer, though it doesn't sound as bad as yours.

But reading the other comments, if its a numbness that takes a while to pass that would indicate to me that its nerve-related, possibly originating somewhere else... interesting to note that dropping the saddle has improved things.

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kil0ran replied to PRSboy | 6 years ago
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PRSboy wrote:

Just a thought, but if you are fitter than you have been, then maybe the action of laying down more power through your feet than they are used to is causing the discomfort.

Do you do any work on pedalling technique?... this features a lot in some TrainerRoad workouts I've done, and they teach you to give each leg 'micro-rests' in part of the pedal stroke.  I've found practicing that can relieve numbness I suffer, though it doesn't sound as bad as yours.

But reading the other comments, if its a numbness that takes a while to pass that would indicate to me that its nerve-related, possibly originating somewhere else... interesting to note that dropping the saddle has improved things.

Definitely putting out more power, I'm beating long-standing Strava PBs from 3 years ago on a bike that's heavier and much less "racy" (steel audax vs carbon CX)

My pedalling technique is probably crap. I do try to vary it whilst riding and shift on the saddle a fair bit too. Riding with open-toed sandals done up sufficiently tight I have noticed that my right foot (larger, dominant) is sliding further forward than my left. I've been working on consciously pushing harder with my left to improve balance so we'll see how that goes. 

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kil0ran | 6 years ago
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Saddle a bit lower for this morning's ride, numbness improved. Further experimentation required.

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Canyon48 | 6 years ago
0 likes

Probably shoes too tight.

I got myself some Fizik shoes with double Boas and volume control - I've only worn them twice and the first time I wore them I got numb toes very quickly.

Loosened off the volume control Boa and stretched my toes a bit - numbness went right away.

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peted76 | 6 years ago
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A couple of mm on the saddle height can restrict blood flow to the foot, just saying.. you might have shorter or tighter 'things or bits'.. maybe try lowering it back a down a couple of mm see if that helps. (Other thing to look at is whether the saddle angle may have changed?)

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AfterPeak | 6 years ago
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Might have nothing to do with it but..... I am thinking about the post the other day about cycling in the heat. Could it be as simple as your feet are swelling more and this is causing the numbness? Is it worse on the communt home in the heat compared to the colder mornings?

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kil0ran replied to AfterPeak | 6 years ago
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SpikeBike wrote:

Might have nothing to do with it but..... I am thinking about the post the other day about cycling in the heat. Could it be as simple as your feet are swelling more and this is causing the numbness? Is it worse on the communt home in the heat compared to the colder mornings?

Good shout. Rode in open-toed sandals this morning (now I understand why Shimano sell SPD sandals!) and my feet were lovely and cool, but still got the numbness.

Feet are definitely swelling during the day at the moment. I'm also a half size bigger on my drive-side foot - meaning there is loads of room in the non-drive side shoe as I always have to size for my bigger foot.

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kil0ran | 6 years ago
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Thanks all, food for thought.

I've tried several options on shoe tightness - my new shoes have a single Boa and I've ridden with them super-loose and insanely tight. Old shoes are two velcro straps and a ratchet (Shimano SPD mountain bike shoes).

Last two rides I've ridden sans cleats and this morning's ride was in my most comfortable pair of walking sandals. Same issue - after about three miles. Ride truncated due to a spectacularly sheared rear mech so couldn't test any further.

Good point about the saddle, I might explore that a little. I'm noticeably laying down thigh and calf muscle at the moment and hamstrings do feel a little tight. Getting quite a bit of post-ride cramp on the outside of my calf running down to my ankle - looking at some physio diagrams I'd say it's the fibularis brevis.

On my best bike I did just whack the saddle up without measuring it but I checked it before the ride this morning and it's in the ballpark - around 73cm from the BB centre to top of saddle, measured in line with the seat tube. That was the figure on the bike fit I had done last year which saw me through Ride London with no issues.

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madcarew replied to kil0ran | 6 years ago
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kil0ran wrote:

Thanks all, food for thought.

I've tried several options on shoe tightness - my new shoes have a single Boa and I've ridden with them super-loose and insanely tight. Old shoes are two velcro straps and a ratchet (Shimano SPD mountain bike shoes).

Last two rides I've ridden sans cleats and this morning's ride was in my most comfortable pair of walking sandals. Same issue - after about three miles. Ride truncated due to a spectacularly sheared rear mech so couldn't test any further.

Good point about the saddle, I might explore that a little. I'm noticeably laying down thigh and calf muscle at the moment and hamstrings do feel a little tight. Getting quite a bit of post-ride cramp on the outside of my calf running down to my ankle - looking at some physio diagrams I'd say it's the fibularis brevis.

On my best bike I did just whack the saddle up without measuring it but I checked it before the ride this morning and it's in the ballpark - around 73cm from the BB centre to top of saddle, measured in line with the seat tube. That was the figure on the bike fit I had done last year which saw me through Ride London with no issues.

Reading about the tightness in yourcalf, I'd double up on the hamstring / glute comments

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peted76 | 6 years ago
1 like

I've had something very similar this year specifically.. 1) best bike has had no changes 2) touring bike has had lots of changes.. 3) same shoes I've had for ages, BUT my cleats have changed position. 

I've not cured it as yet and I have blood tests to be done for the docs.. but I have, a bit oddly gotten rid of the issue on my best bike.. moved cleats back, looser shoes and I've swapped the saddle also recently to one which allows me to move about more (althogh the saddle point is irrelevant in this as that was after I've sort of helped the issue). On the tourer, I need a bike fit and I need to change the saddle, so I just take asprin (which helps a lot).

 

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madcarew | 6 years ago
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A too high saddle can cause toe numbness. My number one bet for your situation though would be sciatic in origin. Oddly, doing core exercises, and focussing on the posterior chain would probably help.  Hamstring and Glute exercises would be top of the list.

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VeloUSA | 6 years ago
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IMO your numbness appears to be shoe related. How loose are your toe straps?

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