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Drivers who kill others could receive life sentences under new laws

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54141729

Sounds good, but will judges still tend to be lenient towards those who kill cyclists?

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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16 comments

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wtjs | 4 years ago
2 likes

I agree with most of those below. This is worthless junk, like the Highway Code consultation- the police and CPP simply refuse to take on cases because they're too busy. Lancashire has begun a policy of not replying at all to online reports of serious offences. 

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kil0ran | 4 years ago
4 likes

Pointless window-dressing. Plenty of evidence that juries are reluctant to convict drivers who kill, and this will make it worse. It's part of the reason the death penalty became harder to enforce in the 20thC - jurors didn't want it on their conscience.

As someone who has lost two mates in RTCs what I'd rather see is life driving bans, properly enforced. Custodials are a blunt instrument for all but the scrotes who just don't care. I recall reading (I think it was on Pistonheads) the experience of an "enthusiast" driver who was banged up for 8 years for killing a motorcyclist. Previously good character, professional job, never been in trouble with the police, not equipped for going inside. He deserved his time, but it laid much harder on him than it would on some of these "drivers" who we see convicted. There's a strong correlation between really dangerous driving and other criminality.

If you'd just taken this bloke's license away it would have hit almost as hard - and he would likely have complied with the ban too, particularly with the threat of a custodial if caught. That's how they should be structured, a bit like lifers being out on licence. 5 year ban, and if you break it you go in for 5 years. Technology can play a role here too potentially.

Edit: the thread has gone now but it's referred to here - https://forums.mbclub.co.uk/threads/thought-provoking-driving-thread.62071/

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wycombewheeler replied to kil0ran | 4 years ago
3 likes

kil0ran wrote:

Pointless window-dressing. Plenty of evidence that juries are reluctant to convict drivers who kill,

research just in

juries of drivers who drive badly are reluctant to convict other drivers who drive badly.

I expect the willingness to convict goes down as the consequences go up/

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Tom_77 | 4 years ago
4 likes

Increasing maximum sentences is just a way for a government to look Tough On Crime™ without spending any money.

The proposed new offence of causing serious injury by careless driving is interesting though.

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Luca Patrono replied to Tom_77 | 4 years ago
0 likes

Even more importantly, maximum sentence increases have absolutely no effect on the ground, because nobody even gets close to the current maximum as it stands. Worthless, posturing trash.

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Mungecrundle | 4 years ago
5 likes

Whilst there should be a deterrent effect, I'm not convinced that people high on drugs, with severe anger management issues or incapacitated through drink actually think as far ahead as the possible consequences should they kill someone. As others have pointed out, a vanishingly small number of killer drivers actually set out to cause harm and the current maximum of 14 years seems to be impossible to get sentenced for no matter how heinous the driving and other factors are prior to causing a death.

Life imprisonment is something of a nuclear option which might make juries reluctant to convict. Whilst reserving the option of prison for the worst offenders, instead of extending the maximum tariff for prison terms I would contend that extended driving bans would seem to be more of a punishment that could actually be used with the benefit of protecting society from the behaviour and saving a fortune in accomodation costs at Her Majesties.

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Hirsute replied to Mungecrundle | 4 years ago
2 likes

Interesting point about the nuclear option and the jury not wanting to convict.
I think a lesser driving charge was introduced years ago due to jury reluctance to convict.

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Captain Badger replied to Hirsute | 4 years ago
1 like

Yeah, I think it was death by careless?

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Luca Patrono replied to Hirsute | 4 years ago
2 likes

Wikipedia on "Manslaughter in English law" says that originally, killing with a vehicle was tried as involuntary manslaughter. Juries refused to convict on it, so death by dangerous driving was introduced.

Presumably, because juries then refused to convict on that (because any actual punishment for killing someone in a car is outrageous, don't you know!), death by careless driving was introduced. With that, and the CPS going for the lesser offense to secure convictions, we reached the slap on the wrist level, so juries of drivers were finally satisfied.

Any and all government interventions that do not address the core problem of driver-juries refusing to convict drivers are worthless. Having no legal background, however, I have no idea how you address the problem of a jury refusing to convict on a clear commission of an offense because of personal bias.

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Captain Badger | 4 years ago
9 likes

They've already got 14 years they can hand out to people but they don't. The judge will still have discretion on whether to use a life sentence. This won't make an iota of difference.

*Edit. 5h1t, I've just found myself agreeing with SC to the letter. Do I need to start reading the Daily Mail now?

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Mungecrundle replied to Captain Badger | 4 years ago
6 likes

Don't get suckered in. It starts like this and before you know it you will be demanding the death penalty for anyone caught cycling in a public place.

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Captain Badger replied to Mungecrundle | 4 years ago
5 likes

Nah, hanging's too good for 'em.

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OnYerBike | 4 years ago
2 likes

I guess it's an improvement, but I'm not convinced it's the best option. I would like to see the courts much more readily revoke licences for extended periods (5+ years) or even for life - driving is a privilege, and those who can't be trusted to drive safely shouldn't be allowed to drive. Keeping them off the roads would safeguard the public, and I don't see that them serving extended periods in prison really helps anyone.

The stongest argument for these revised sentences (in my mind) is the deterrent effect - if you know you might spend life in prison you might be a bit more cautious. Although I suspect that as no-one ever (or at least very, very rarely) sets out to kill through dangerous driving, people will continue to believe that it's not going to happen to them and therefore they can carry on driving however they wish.

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AlsoSomniloquism replied to OnYerBike | 4 years ago
3 likes

I agree with the extended bans and life bans as well. But I would much prefer a 10 year retake to keep your license AND Doctors to be able to tell the DVLA to remove licensesto be added to the new rules. 

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Hirsute replied to AlsoSomniloquism | 4 years ago
0 likes

The retakes seems tricky due to the number of tests required but I have read some suggest that a simulation test might be an option given the standard of some immersive computer games.

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OnTheRopes | 4 years ago
2 likes

This is a good news, but if the CPS don't bring it to court, or the Judge is as lenient as many cases we have seen, or the Police act like they did in Norfolk recently then I fear it won't make any difference.

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