Tipper truck involved in another London cyclist fatality

mrmo wrote:

Might have been greenwash, but it does point out that if they could be arsed there are things that could be done, infact it does actually make an important point, if they could be arsed to spend the money they could get trucks off the road. How much is a life worth?

Sure, I think so too.
I'm just saying that the olympics doesn't provide an example.

mrmo wrote:

hoopyfrood wrote:

mrmo wrote:

I seem to remember that a large quantity of materials for the olympics were brought in on barges to keep trucks off the road.

I'm afraid that was greenwash. Barges were hardly used at all. It was a scam to barrage the tidal river Lea so that there'd be no low-tide mud by the riverside housing they wanted to sell. You used to see the tides at Hackney marsh - not any more.
http://www.gamesmonitor.org.uk/node/771
http://www.gamesmonitor.org.uk/node/401

Might have been greenwash, but it does point out that if they could be arsed there are things that could be done, infact it does actually make an important point, if they could be arsed to spend the money they could get trucks off the road. How much is a life worth?

London right now has a population of 8.6 million. It's expected to grow to 10 million by 2030, and possibly earlier than that (2026 some estimates say). The city will require massive infrastructure development plus new homes as there is already a massive shortage. How do you think that will be achieved? We're going to see a lot more construction sites and a lot more tipper trucks. Forget about barges. They're not economic.

antigee wrote:

note the right turn lane in the picture that narrows the road lane, traffic flow rules

Add to that the Pavlovian obeyance to white lines by drivers and you have a recipe for disaster.

http://road.cc/content/news/135156-roads-without-centre-lines-make-safer...

antigee wrote:

"The question of how drivers are incentivised is I think the only real gap in the current studies available."

also do major construction contractors put pressure on suppliers to meet delivery slots? Is performance on this issue used to reward contracts / deny contracts / lodge claims for delays on site

note the right turn lane in the picture that narrows the road lane,
traffic flow rules

Yes indeed, construction firms do put pressure on suppliers to make deliveries on time. It costs money , a lot of money, if deliveries are late as this can hold up construction work.

There are many factors as to why tipper trucks are involved in so many fatalities involving cyclists and most have been mentioned in previous posts. One that hasn't so far is that a lot of the companies running tipper truck fleets operate under very questionable methods. Some of the tipper trucks are also poorly maintained. And there are a lot of owner-operators of tipper trucks who are under the most pressure of all. If they miss deadlines for deliveries, they can well lose their job and their truck.

OldRidgeback wrote:

Yes indeed, construction firms do put pressure on suppliers to make deliveries on time. It costs money , a lot of money, if deliveries are late as this can hold up construction work.

There are many factors as to why tipper trucks are involved in so many fatalities involving cyclists and most have been mentioned in previous posts. One that hasn't so far is that a lot of the companies running tipper truck fleets operate under very questionable methods. Some of the tipper trucks are also poorly maintained. And there are a lot of owner-operators of tipper trucks who are under the most pressure of all. If they miss deadlines for deliveries, they can well lose their job and their truck.

But there's a lot of other owner-operators of HGVs working for the construction industry and who don't keep killing cyclists. For example most concrete-mixing lorries (even though they may be decked out in the livery of a concrete manufacturer) are owned/operated by their drivers. Also the tipper-truck phenomena appears to be confined largely to London. Why? Is it just the sheer volume of construction traffic?

Joeinpoole wrote:

Also the tipper-truck phenomena appears to be confined largely to London. Why? Is it just the sheer volume of construction traffic?

Yes, pretty much. There's been a boom in commercial construction for the last decade.

bdsl wrote:

Another big problem is that if someone is knocked off their bike by a tipper truck or other construction vehicle it's much too easy for them to fall under the wheels instead of being pushed away. They are often designed with a lot of open space around the wheels, which makes them easier to drive on the uneven ground of bulding sites but much more dangerous.

No, the drivers are just psychos.

jacknorell wrote:

Tipper trucks are massively over-represented.

It's a problem with how that industry is structured. With pay per load contracts, sole operators, and razor thin margins all leading to aggressive driving of poorly maintained vehicles in what is usually busy areas as that's where construction is.

Tipper truck drivers do often seem to be more of the "I'm big, get out of the way" attitude than drivers of other vehicles.

I had a strange incident with one on Monday morning, I was in my car. At lights, two lanes filtering left, four lanes going straight ahead. I was on the right of the two left filter lanes, he was alongside me in the left most "straight ahead" lane.

As the lights turned green we both started to move forward, he then put his left indicator on (no, that's not the strange bit!) and started to turn in to me. I had to sound my horn, there was nowhere for me to go. The car behind me let him pull in and he started having a go at me. At the next lights, I got out to find out what the problem was. Apparently "I could see what he wanted to do and should have let him do it".

He simply couldn't get his head around the fact that this wasn't an option for me. He was a complete moron.

Joeinpoole wrote:

Does anyone understand *why* tipper trucks specifically are responsible for so many cyclist deaths and injuries?

Is it due to the design of the cabs, a lack of visibility or the training of drivers? Are the drivers generally employed or are they self-employed for example?

There *has* to be a reason and we need to find it as quickly as possible. Maybe some academic can apply to TfL for a grant to research the issue and come up with solutions.

TfL funded a study from TRL as part of the work as it developed towards their incoming changes to the London Lorry Control scheme.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/safer-lorry-trl-report.pdf
Table 4-2 is particularly worth a look

Additionally there is a TfL funded piece of research into all London cycle fatalities from 2007-11
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pedal-cyclist-fatalities-...

The question of how drivers are incentivised is I think the only real gap in the current studies available.

Joeinpoole wrote:

Does anyone understand *why* tipper trucks specifically are responsible for so many cyclist deaths and injuries?

Random checks on lorries in the capital under Operation Mermaid (2008) found that every single lorry that was stopped was in contravention of the law in some way.

During the more recent Operation Safeway, two thirds of the lorries on London's roads were breaking the law in some way - dodgy brakes, a fiddled tacho, unsafe load, etc. Fourteen were considered so dangerous they were immediately taken off the road.

It appears to be a profession in which law-breaking is endemic, and probably even condoned and encouraged by the FTA.

congokid wrote:

Joeinpoole wrote:

Does anyone understand *why* tipper trucks specifically are responsible for so many cyclist deaths and injuries?

Random checks on lorries in the capital under Operation Mermaid (2008) found that every single lorry that was stopped was in contravention of the law in some way.

During the more recent Operation Safeway, two thirds of the lorries on London's roads were breaking the law in some way - dodgy brakes, a fiddled tacho, unsafe load, etc. Fourteen were considered so dangerous they were immediately taken off the road.

It appears to be a profession in which law-breaking is endemic, and probably even condoned and encouraged by the FTA.

Those were 'random' checks carried out by the police. In reality, the police probably took a quick look at the HGVs passing by and knew exactly which ones they wanted to pull over. You can tell a lot about the general condition and maintenance of an HGV by even a quick glance at it. The rear axle of tipper, which is really easy to spot from behind, tells you a good deal. If it's muddy and there's grease staining around the axle stubs, keep well back. Dirty trucks are more likely to be badly maintained in the construction sector.

As regards the FTA, it speaks for a wide array of haulage firms. Many of those companies, probably the vast majority, are entirely legitimate and run properly and have decent safety standards. There is a small hard core of firms that are not and it should be of no surprise that the same hard core is also involved in a disproportionately high number of deaths or serious injuries.

But London's population is increasing. It just passed 8.6 million and is expected to continue rising to 10 million by 2026. So if you think the flow of tipper trucks to construction sites is going to end, think again. There will be more construction, more deliveries and the transport issues could well get worse unless there is serious investment in all types of infrastructure.