Another word needed for cycling commuters, says Dame Sarah Storey – but what should it be?

Nick T wrote:

I keep reading the bit where riding two up is equated to having a passenger in a car for a chat and I can’t stop laughing 

Pretty much every motorist I've spoken to seems to think its reasonable to drive in a car on their own, but that even a sole cyclist is somehow using too much road-space.

brooksby wrote:

Nick T wrote:

I keep reading the bit where riding two up is equated to having a passenger in a car for a chat and I can’t stop laughing 

Pretty much every motorist I've spoken to seems to think its reasonable to drive in a car on their own, but that even a sole cyclist is somehow using too much road-space.

It is reasonable to drive in a car on your own. It’s also reasonable to ride 2 up -because it’s stated as such in the Highway Code. Nonsense about having a chat as a human right or whatever only distracts from the task of educating people about the shared use of roads as well as the benefits of more cyclists leading to less cars leading to less traffic

alg wrote:

Love you for trying Sarah. 

But the sorry fact in this country is that the bigger your vehicle is and the more power you have, the more important you are.  Only having 2 wheels and pedals makes you derisible.  I can assure you that motorcycles (I used to ride those too)  face exaxtly the same prejudice - the only difference was that we were leather clad yobs.  Even in a small car you face similar threats from bigger stuff.  Its about attitudes and these, sadly, seem to be engrained in our society from as far back in history as you care to look.  Until we see each other as humans I hold out little hope of improvement.

It's been an arms race for years - big estates, chelsea tractors, monstrous SUVs, T5 campers, and now pickups (trucks in American parlance). I'm either driving my partner's KA or our Mondeo estate (I'm quite possibly the least gammony Mondeo Man ever) and it is very noticeable how other drivers treat you differently. Routinely get cut up/pulled out on/tailgated in the KA, rarely happens in the Mondeo even though I'm doing the same journey at the same speed. 

Society thrives on "othering" people which I'm sure she's acutely aware of as both a cyclist and someone with a disability - I think starting with person as per the Australian study is the why to go. Need to try and humanise people rather than seeing an Audi driver or BMW driver.

kil0ran wrote:

alg wrote:

Love you for trying Sarah. 

But the sorry fact in this country is that the bigger your vehicle is and the more power you have, the more important you are.  Only having 2 wheels and pedals makes you derisible.  I can assure you that motorcycles (I used to ride those too)  face exaxtly the same prejudice - the only difference was that we were leather clad yobs.  Even in a small car you face similar threats from bigger stuff.  Its about attitudes and these, sadly, seem to be engrained in our society from as far back in history as you care to look.  Until we see each other as humans I hold out little hope of improvement.

It's been an arms race for years - big estates, chelsea tractors, monstrous SUVs, T5 campers, and now pickups (trucks in American parlance). I'm either driving my partner's KA or our Mondeo estate (I'm quite possibly the least gammony Mondeo Man ever) and it is very noticeable how other drivers treat you differently. Routinely get cut up/pulled out on/tailgated in the KA, rarely happens in the Mondeo even though I'm doing the same journey at the same speed. 

Society thrives on "othering" people which I'm sure she's acutely aware of as both a cyclist and someone with a disability - I think starting with person as per the Australian study is the why to go. Need to try and humanise people rather than seeing an Audi driver or BMW driver.

I drive regularly for work in various pool cars and you bang on about being treated differently as regards what you drive, it is something I have experience when I had to do the same journey within an hour or so, between a 17 plate Seat Alhambra (7 seat mpv) and then in a mustard colour 10 year old fiat panda. I got treated with respect in the Seat but like dirt in the fiat. This is not isolated event as I regularly experience this effect!

This is why cycling on the road is so bad, because be it a 70 year old grandmother to a 17 year old they are all making value judgments based on there subconscious view of who’s the boss and who is staff, that’s why if you get cross, shout back at them when they do the stupid they become very aggressive ( the car is empowering and makes even little people feel big). Sort this mindset out and you sort the problem, but I believe we are a long way from solving the problem!

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

kil0ran wrote:

alg wrote:

Love you for trying Sarah. 

But the sorry fact in this country is that the bigger your vehicle is and the more power you have, the more important you are.  Only having 2 wheels and pedals makes you derisible.  I can assure you that motorcycles (I used to ride those too)  face exaxtly the same prejudice - the only difference was that we were leather clad yobs.  Even in a small car you face similar threats from bigger stuff.  Its about attitudes and these, sadly, seem to be engrained in our society from as far back in history as you care to look.  Until we see each other as humans I hold out little hope of improvement.

It's been an arms race for years - big estates, chelsea tractors, monstrous SUVs, T5 campers, and now pickups (trucks in American parlance). I'm either driving my partner's KA or our Mondeo estate (I'm quite possibly the least gammony Mondeo Man ever) and it is very noticeable how other drivers treat you differently. Routinely get cut up/pulled out on/tailgated in the KA, rarely happens in the Mondeo even though I'm doing the same journey at the same speed. 

Society thrives on "othering" people which I'm sure she's acutely aware of as both a cyclist and someone with a disability - I think starting with person as per the Australian study is the why to go. Need to try and humanise people rather than seeing an Audi driver or BMW driver.

I drive regularly for work in various pool cars and you bang on about being treated differently as regards what you drive, it is something I have experience when I had to do the same journey within an hour or so, between a 17 plate Seat Alhambra (7 seat mpv) and then in a mustard colour 10 year old fiat panda. I got treated with respect in the Seat but like dirt in the fiat. This is not isolated event as I regularly experience this effect!

This is why cycling on the road is so bad, because be it a 70 year old grandmother to a 17 year old they are all making value judgments based on there subconscious view of who’s the boss and who is staff, that’s why if you get cross, shout back at them when they do the stupid they become very aggressive ( the car is empowering and makes even little people feel big). Sort this mindset out and you sort the problem, but I believe we are a long way from solving the problem!

Yup, although I think it's more about money than status, which is why I've got mates spunking £800 a month on car lease payments (I mean, pay off the mortgage quicker and drive a shitbox FFS)

My Mondeo cost me £450 outright with half a tank of fuel. Every panel is dented or scratched but it's mechanically completely sound and having a car you don't care about is really liberating. Don't care where I leave it, quite happy to stick it in the hedge, don't maintain it beyond what it needs to be legal/pass MOT, etc. Plus it will lug 3 bikes on a towbar carrier (which cost more than the car).

kil0ran wrote:

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

kil0ran wrote:

alg wrote:

Love you for trying Sarah. 

But the sorry fact in this country is that the bigger your vehicle is and the more power you have, the more important you are.  Only having 2 wheels and pedals makes you derisible.  I can assure you that motorcycles (I used to ride those too)  face exaxtly the same prejudice - the only difference was that we were leather clad yobs.  Even in a small car you face similar threats from bigger stuff.  Its about attitudes and these, sadly, seem to be engrained in our society from as far back in history as you care to look.  Until we see each other as humans I hold out little hope of improvement.

It's been an arms race for years - big estates, chelsea tractors, monstrous SUVs, T5 campers, and now pickups (trucks in American parlance). I'm either driving my partner's KA or our Mondeo estate (I'm quite possibly the least gammony Mondeo Man ever) and it is very noticeable how other drivers treat you differently. Routinely get cut up/pulled out on/tailgated in the KA, rarely happens in the Mondeo even though I'm doing the same journey at the same speed. 

Society thrives on "othering" people which I'm sure she's acutely aware of as both a cyclist and someone with a disability - I think starting with person as per the Australian study is the why to go. Need to try and humanise people rather than seeing an Audi driver or BMW driver.

I drive regularly for work in various pool cars and you bang on about being treated differently as regards what you drive, it is something I have experience when I had to do the same journey within an hour or so, between a 17 plate Seat Alhambra (7 seat mpv) and then in a mustard colour 10 year old fiat panda. I got treated with respect in the Seat but like dirt in the fiat. This is not isolated event as I regularly experience this effect!

This is why cycling on the road is so bad, because be it a 70 year old grandmother to a 17 year old they are all making value judgments based on there subconscious view of who’s the boss and who is staff, that’s why if you get cross, shout back at them when they do the stupid they become very aggressive ( the car is empowering and makes even little people feel big). Sort this mindset out and you sort the problem, but I believe we are a long way from solving the problem!

Yup, although I think it's more about money than status, which is why I've got mates spunking £800 a month on car lease payments (I mean, pay off the mortgage quicker and drive a shitbox FFS)

My Mondeo cost me £450 outright with half a tank of fuel. Every panel is dented or scratched but it's mechanically completely sound and having a car you don't care about is really liberating. Don't care where I leave it, quite happy to stick it in the hedge, don't maintain it beyond what it needs to be legal/pass MOT, etc. Plus it will lug 3 bikes on a towbar carrier (which cost more than the car).

 

you are right about money, but money and status I believe are married together. Look at it like this, last year I got  pulled out on from the left this wrote my bike off. The bike was a £300 Triban 3 with a better wheelset and a few upgrades so about £450 ish in total. The police were involved but he asked at first if he could pay me for the bike direct. When I showed him the cost of a replacement he then pretty much cried fraud and claimed that I needed to prove that that’s what he owed. I then got 3 options and he just got more defensive. In the end I had to go through his insurance by putting a claim against him. This became a right battle as he was adamant that A. He did not do that much damage and B. Bikes don’t cost that much. My point is that most people do not see or know the value of our bikes (some cost more than there cars). So they place higher cost and status to there cars. Any way it’s all a bit hopeless as most are not interested in trying to change there mindset and government is not with us so it’s so we just have to keep peddling and keep smiling!!!

kil0ran wrote:

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

kil0ran wrote:

alg wrote:

Love you for trying Sarah. 

But the sorry fact in this country is that the bigger your vehicle is and the more power you have, the more important you are.  Only having 2 wheels and pedals makes you derisible.  I can assure you that motorcycles (I used to ride those too)  face exaxtly the same prejudice - the only difference was that we were leather clad yobs.  Even in a small car you face similar threats from bigger stuff.  Its about attitudes and these, sadly, seem to be engrained in our society from as far back in history as you care to look.  Until we see each other as humans I hold out little hope of improvement.

It's been an arms race for years - big estates, chelsea tractors, monstrous SUVs, T5 campers, and now pickups (trucks in American parlance). I'm either driving my partner's KA or our Mondeo estate (I'm quite possibly the least gammony Mondeo Man ever) and it is very noticeable how other drivers treat you differently. Routinely get cut up/pulled out on/tailgated in the KA, rarely happens in the Mondeo even though I'm doing the same journey at the same speed. 

Society thrives on "othering" people which I'm sure she's acutely aware of as both a cyclist and someone with a disability - I think starting with person as per the Australian study is the why to go. Need to try and humanise people rather than seeing an Audi driver or BMW driver.

I drive regularly for work in various pool cars and you bang on about being treated differently as regards what you drive, it is something I have experience when I had to do the same journey within an hour or so, between a 17 plate Seat Alhambra (7 seat mpv) and then in a mustard colour 10 year old fiat panda. I got treated with respect in the Seat but like dirt in the fiat. This is not isolated event as I regularly experience this effect!

This is why cycling on the road is so bad, because be it a 70 year old grandmother to a 17 year old they are all making value judgments based on there subconscious view of who’s the boss and who is staff, that’s why if you get cross, shout back at them when they do the stupid they become very aggressive ( the car is empowering and makes even little people feel big). Sort this mindset out and you sort the problem, but I believe we are a long way from solving the problem!

Yup, although I think it's more about money than status, which is why I've got mates spunking £800 a month on car lease payments (I mean, pay off the mortgage quicker and drive a shitbox FFS)

My Mondeo cost me £450 outright with half a tank of fuel. Every panel is dented or scratched but it's mechanically completely sound and having a car you don't care about is really liberating. Don't care where I leave it, quite happy to stick it in the hedge, don't maintain it beyond what it needs to be legal/pass MOT, etc. Plus it will lug 3 bikes on a towbar carrier (which cost more than the car).

 

Many, many years ago now, I needed a car to get me to and from a summer job on the other side of Edinburgh. I'd tried cycling the route but it was 13 miles and up some of the steepest routes in the city, with a hard labouring job at the end of it. Anyway, I bought an old Ford Granada from a friend of a friend.

It guzzled fuel and engine oil, but it stopped and steered ok and had a few months left on its MOT. The exhaust needed replacing and as it was the V6, that was going to cost more than the car had cost me to buy, so I bought it knowing that I could sell it to a scrappy and still get a decent amount of money for the sought after V6 motor.

Driving it was a revelation. people wold see a young guy in a large, bashed up car with a powerful (for the time) motor. They gave me plenty of room.

HarrogateSpa wrote:

I really wish Sarah Storey all the best, and I'm fine with talking about people on bikes, not cyclists.

But this idea that we must have different terms for people riding to the shops, and anyone wearing cycling clothes to ride a road bike, is wrong and unhelpful on so many levels. It falls into the trap of trying to appease the bastards attacking anyone on two wheels.

Even Storey's quote in the article appears to be saying: cycle commuter = good, wearing cycling clothes = bad/you are a yob. Most of the people making this argument are deflecting hatred, saying, 'look at him, in lycra, you want to be having a go at him, not me - he's the evil one.'

I can't understand why Storey would possibly be making this argument. She is a racing cyclist, for Christ's sake, and she even has her own team. I'm wondering whether she is the right person to be Cycling Champion for Sheffield.

This. Swapping "cyclists" for "people on bikes" makes sense because (even if the latter is just the definition of the former), it emphasises the similarities between road users rather than differences.

I don't know how "wielrenner" is actually used, but it appears to refer to a competitive racing cyclist, as opposed to cyclists using the public road for either recreational or transport reasons - not sure if in practice it's used in the Netherlands to refer to 'weekend warriors' and club riders too. 

But if SS is suggesting we adopt different words to distinguish between utility and recreational cyclists on the roads, then that goes in the opposite direction, serving only to create more division and imply that one of these groups is less human than the other. Both of those groups currently come in for undeserved hostility on the roads, and simply giving them different names won't help in my view. The Netherlands isn't cycling friendly simply because it has two different words for cyclist, it's because it recognises that cyclists are people on bikes.          

I'm sure the name change will alter driver behaviour and everything will be grand after.

Jimnm wrote:

The best name for us is Two wheeler. 

You seem to have forgotten something there, mate.

Give it a minute, I'm sure it'll come to you.

Jimnm wrote:

The best name for us is Two wheeler. 

Hmm, that covers me whether I'm on my bicycle or my motorbike.