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peted76 wrote:

I could care less about the individuals on top of those trains. They willingly made the decision to risk to their safety when they decided to jump on top of a train at rush hour. They could have tripped, slipped and fallen off or someone could have thrown something worse than a cup of ice at them. I certainly wouldn't wish a beating on anyone but it was either a 'highly stupid plan' or simply 'a distinct naivety' from those protesters to do what they did, where they did it.  I mean why pick on an underground station to start with and why that station of all stations, surely canary wharf if they wanted to upset the capitalists.. 

And while I agree that a couple of bad apples in a cart shouldn't spoil it for everyone.. and sympathise to those like @kt26, however those protesters protested in the name of ER, with a ER banner and their own ER cameraman and everything, ergo, why would anyone NOT consider them to be representing ER? and how difficult will it be for people outside of the movement, NOT to consider that the movement as a whole did endorse the action this morning?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQsbgoJU_Vk 

 

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group?

And please don't misunderstand I'm not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about "us" as a collective - and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being "cyclists".

kt26 wrote:

peted76 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQsbgoJU_Vk 

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group? And please don't misunderstand I'm not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about "us" as a collective - and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being "cyclists".

What I meant was that it'll be very difficult for ER as a movement to distance themselves from those particular protesters yesterday in the public eyes.

No one should be stereotyped, but saying that, doesn't stop people from being stereotyped. 

The bad publicity those ER protesters gathered yesterday took the movement back a couple of steps.

You can't reasonably think that Mrs.Anne.Other from down the road with 2 kids is going to look at that tube incident on the news and think 'oh that's silly, however there's always a few bad apples, I'm sure the other 998 protesters aren't happy the way that ones gone. 

Whether it's right or not, Mrs.Anne.Other will exactly judge the 'whole movement' based on the overall media coverage and she'll lean towards the 'latest' media.  Whether that's okay to you or not.

I'd be happier if the peaceful sensible ER people just turned around and said 'We'd like to apologise to the commuters on the tube yesterday, you know how things go protesting, people get a little excited and there's a thousand ideas flying around, we didn't endorse that, we're dealing with those protestors directly and hope to be back to our normal more thought out protests at some point soon. 

peted76 wrote:

kt26 wrote:

peted76 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQsbgoJU_Vk 

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group? And please don't misunderstand I'm not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about "us" as a collective - and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being "cyclists".

What I meant was that it'll be very difficult for ER as a movement to distance themselves from those particular protesters yesterday in the public eyes.

No one should be stereotyped, but saying that, doesn't stop people from being stereotyped. 

The bad publicity those ER protesters gathered yesterday took the movement back a couple of steps.

You can't reasonably think that Mrs.Anne.Other from down the road with 2 kids is going to look at that tube incident on the news and think 'oh that's silly, however there's always a few bad apples, I'm sure the other 998 protesters aren't happy the way that ones gone. 

Whether it's right or not, Mrs.Anne.Other will exactly judge the 'whole movement' based on the overall media coverage and she'll lean towards the 'latest' media.  Whether that's okay to you or not.

I'd be happier if the peaceful sensible ER people just turned around and said 'We'd like to apologise to the commuters on the tube yesterday, you know how things go protesting, people get a little excited and there's a thousand ideas flying around, we didn't endorse that, we're dealing with those protestors directly and hope to be back to our normal more thought out protests at some point soon. 

Ah, maybe I wasn't clear enough, I fully get this is what will happen. I expect this to happen, I expected this to happen where I heard there were people thinking of doing such action. And I'm not saying its necessarily unreasonable if it is present the way it was. I was just drawing the comparison as some went straight for the - XR shows their true colours routine - which is a slippery slope given how the same is applied to cyclist.

This is compounded by the half reporting of the story, XR did come out and apologise for the what happened, but instead of new stories, the old stories were updated. Co-founder Rupert Read came out calling the action "catastropically stupid" in light of the challenge to the Section 14 challenge also apologising to commuters and commenting on the fact that it was no-violent - also missing for context when the protester kicked-out at the commuter trying to pull him off the train is that commuters had already starting using violence against the "camerman". So I guess I just want to offer some additional context to the story which is very open to misrepresenting the facts at hand.

For example not reported here yesterday was the cycling angle, in that a mass bike ride took part that was organised by XR.

kt26 wrote:

2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

Don't disagree with the sentiment you express here, but the issue is that these disparate groups use the umbrella of XR to get their message heard, and it works. So one of those groups protesting in this kind of way that even the bulk of other XR groups don't want will reflect badly on the whole umbrella as it has their name on it, and people are always likely to simply lump all of XR together when this sort of thing happens.

Cyclists, on the other hand, appear to have the umbrella group of "Cyclists", and how they should behave, imposed on them by others, and are much more concerned with simply being allowed to carry on with their daily lives without being hassled, abused or KSId as they do so. 

Jetmans Dad wrote:

kt26 wrote:

2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

Don't disagree with the sentiment you express here, but the issue is that these disparate groups use the umbrella of XR to get their message heard, and it works. So one of those groups protesting in this kind of way that even the bulk of other XR groups don't want will reflect badly on the whole umbrella as it has their name on it, and people are always likely to simply lump all of XR together when this sort of thing happens.

Cyclists, on the other hand, appear to have the umbrella group of "Cyclists", and how they should behave, imposed on them by others, and are much more concerned with simply being allowed to carry on with their daily lives without being hassled, abused or KSId as they do so. 

Absolutely agree a lot of damage has been done, it was alway going to be this way and part of the problem with how XR is run, it allows anyone to use the name as long as the action is non-violent, a great way to help spread the message, but it has an ungly flipside - a couple to radical members can destroy the good work of the entire group with a bit of help from the media.

I just see a lot of similarities with what is happening with cyclist, we are cleaner as a means of transport, healthier as a way of living but bad actions of a few is jumped on by the media because our existence is seen as a nuisance to the status quo and vested interests - and then you get things like channel 5's hate propaganda or yesterday radio rubbish, inciting hate in the masses leading to unhinged individuals thinking it is funny to push people off of bicycles.

kt26 wrote:

Hi, been a silent observer for some time, but felt compelled to comment on a couple of points raised over the XR tube action (and no I don't support it) here:

1. Having be in contact with XR activists and a strong supporter of their overall goals, I can say most of them also didn't agree with the action - over 70% where strongly against it and voted as such and are very disappointed it happened as it will move the converstation away from where it should be.

2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

3. In that vain, I found it funny seeing this on road.cc today given it isn't particularly related to cycling, while you have comment on XR in the past it has mainly be to do with how the action has affected cycling - but then have jumped on a sensationalising issue unrelated to cycling while ignoring some of the more important actions like XR activists trying to protect woodland in Surrey which is being demolished for HS2 despite the the uncertainty.

 

Also on the consumerism thing, seem to think we are missing the role advertising plays in driving demand - companies spend vast amount on psychologically stimulating ads to make people want things they would otherwise have no desire for. If you are immune you are in the minority and the better for it, but alot of money is invested in research to drive consumption - just something to consider

well said, the bicycle industry is massive in terms of pushing needless consumerism, we are a point now were the onset of disc braked bikes has meant an absolute plethora of rim braked bikes/wheels on the market.

The number of bikes that only need a short amount of fettling that go to the dump is frightening, I've fished loads including paying for some from the tip so that they could be put back into service. Whilst the problems are worse for other modes of transport, the lure of more shiny things including clothing which means masses of gear being disposed to landfill and premature replacement before parts are fully worn is and always has been a problem in the industry but is rarely if ever spoken about. 

Metals such as dead chains, worn/broken cables (including the metal inside outer cables) and so on that are binned for landfill instead of put in the proper scrap bin at the tip. I even cut open old brake blocks that have a metal centre and the bits of rubber all go into the rubber/tyre container I reckon I must have saved about 200 bikes from being scrapped over three decades but there must be tens if not hundreds of thousands of bikes rotting/being skipped and new replacements, many of them cheap tat that will end up doing same (few rides than sat in shed for years before being skipped)

We also have the problem of carbon fibre that seemingly nobody has a clue how to recycle/dispose of properly.

We can do so much more IMO, stopping the production and sale of cheap and nasty bikes that don't last 5 minutes would be a start but making sure we dispose of waste cycle components correctly to be recycled is another that everyone can do.

ChrisB200SX wrote:

I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

Err doesn't fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

gazzaputt wrote:

ChrisB200SX wrote:

I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

 

Err doesn't fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

Yep..

gazzaputt wrote:

ChrisB200SX wrote:

I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

 

Err doesn't fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

Nope. He tries to push away someone from an angry mob, already assaulting him with whatever they are throwing at him (do you remember milkshakes?), who is obviously trying to do him harm. I think if someone tried to grab your legs to drop you from quite a height you might defend yourself too, no?

Had the grabbing attempt been made by a police officer the story would be entirely different. No-one has the right to attack him just because of where he is.

I don't go attacking cyclists/drivers because they are in my way and slowing down my journey... but maybe you do?

ktache wrote:

Nice Phil, you are of course from the continent of natural horror.  And awful driving.

Much less in nature to get you in mild, tepid blighty.  Drivers, hmmm.

yes, I am. Awful driving is a national pastime, along with swearing and shortening all names to a single syllable and calling you mate then an effing c for riding a bike…

Though they must’ve put something in the water because today I had nothing but courtesy and safe passes from drivers. Even had to wave a few past me! Now that  I think about it, I was riding the Tern GSD with full panniers and wearing a fluorescent work shirt, they probably thought I was a postman not a cyclist… maybe I’m on to something.

brooksby wrote:

Nope.  D-lock in an easily accessible location, I think (rather than jammed down a pannier or buckled away in a saddle bag).

I understand why you would want to do this but you hurling a D-lock at someone will only result in YOU getting your collar felt by plod.

dobbo996 wrote:

brooksby wrote:

Nope.  D-lock in an easily accessible location, I think (rather than jammed down a pannier or buckled away in a saddle bag).

I understand why you would want to do this but you hurling a D-lock at someone will only result in YOU getting your collar felt by plod.

I know 

Just makes me angry that some thug is doing this, and the response from the police is "Well watch out and if someone pulls alongside you, pull over, stop, and watch them laughing at you"...

(Anyway, my d-lock was quite expensive so I woudn't chuck it ).

visionset wrote:

It is about raising awareness and disrupting life as normal, since that is exactly what is and has been coming our way due to climate change.  Admittedly it is better to do this at an airport, but all capitalism disruption is good in my book. 

Yeah because what has capitalism ever done for us!

The money trail for extinction rebellion is also starting to be followed now. It's not leading to any great philanthropists. It's still all about you buying stuff and possibly paying more tax for it because 'green' you know.

srchar wrote:

Of course not - while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car's production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

Even if, like me, you're not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it's difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube - half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

I think the mask has truly slipped for Extinction Rebellion now.

They don't really care about the environment they just want to cause disruption.

I can't think of a form of mass transit that is less polluting than the tube.

With more modern trains and an increasingly low carbon electricity supply it will only get cleaner as well.

Rich_cb wrote:

srchar wrote:

Of course not - while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car's production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

Even if, like me, you're not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it's difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube - half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

I think the mask has truly slipped for Extinction Rebellion now. They don't really care about the environment they just want to cause disruption. I can't think of a form of mass transit that is less polluting than the tube. With more modern trains and an increasingly low carbon electricity supply it will only get cleaner as well.

However, XR's protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become "greener", it's about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it's also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to "blame" consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to "blame" and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

hawkinspeter wrote:

Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it's also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

It's entirely the wrong type of publicity though. The government is elected by the people. It's a fallacy that you can change the government's attitude in isolation; you'll always need to bring a large number of voters along with you. Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact "business", but the targeting is indiscriminate.

I'd expect to get dragged off the top of a commuter train regardless of the subject of my protest, frankly.