TfL warns it will take action against Addison Lee as London minicab firm tells its drivers to use bus lanes

The quicker a Taxi or Mini-Cab completes its journey, the more money they can make. So they are desperate to complete each journey as quick as possible. Therefore going for the gaps and swerving at the last second, overtaking on the inside is just normal activity for them. Mr Griffins' income would increase greatly if he gets his way.

He sounds like a winging greedy person to me.

He obviously hasn't tried cycling in built up areas, possibly because his Mummy won't let him.

If he is to get his way, maybe it should be dependant on him cycling around central London in the middle of all those Addison Lee vehicles, he would love it. He should be challenged to this over the course of a month, then he would be better equipped to make an argument for or against it.

HE SHOULDN'T BE IN A POSITION TO MAKE A PLEA FOR USING BUS LANES UNTIL HE HAS CYCLED IN CENTRAL LONDON IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THOSE ADDISON LEE VEHICLES.

Echo sentiments about AL drivers being some of the worst on the road. Most I've had the misfortune of being on the road at the same time as seem to spend 90% of the time with eyes glued to the effing satnav and 10% looking at the road, and don't signal. Shocking standards. At least black-cab drivers look out of the the windscreen most of the time.

More here: http://cyclelondoncity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/addisonlee-theres-every-ch...

+1 for Addison Lee being the most inconsiderate drivers in Central London. Shocking what their drivers get away with.

This a nice piece of PR trolling for them - a slap on the wrist and tons of free publicity

Is it me but are AL drivers being extra careful and considerate to cyclists?!? The last few days have been a revelation.Making room, slowing down, not cutting me up.And not one seen in a bus lane either. I feel like I have dropped into some alternate dimension. Is Griffin playing some calculated reverse psychology game ?

Just to wade in on the cost issue - I agree that they are expensive for one, but they work out much cheaper for a group.

To get me + 4 friends home from zone 1 to zone 3 in a taxi costs ~£20.

To do the same journey with the same number of people on the tube costs £15.50 if we all have Oyster cards, £21.50 if we don't.

I'm far from a high earner, but I know which one is the more convenient, more pleasant experience and much better value for money.

OK, I agree that very rich is an hyperbole.

I would still put forward that black cabs are in general the preserve of the wealthiest 10% to 15% in London. I suspect there aren't many figures available to prove my assertion.

Yes, I agree tube fares are too high, although I think it is only fair to compare Oyster fares which is £2.00 for a Zone 1 journey. Years of underinvestment have created a situation where the only way to keep demand down and one way reduce overcrowding is to increase prices.

My view is that there should be a super-off-peak fare to increase accessibility to those on lower incomes outside of peak hours.

Quote:

We lived in South London, and factoring in fifteen or twenty quid for a cab home at the end of the night was part of our outlay for the evening; the alternative was to crash on someone's couch (great in your 20s, we weren't), or go into London and back out via night bus which would take hours.

OK, but I can assure you that a great many people in London are not in a position to be able to spend £20 on a cab to get home. Thus the the black cab lobby cannot justify there position as 'public transport'. The only clear exception I can see is transport of the elderly and disabled.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/1140.aspx

4 miles is £17 - £27 after 22:00. I would argue that's pretty expensive.

Two points on this:

1. There is nothing stopping Addison Lee from operating hackney carriages as well as mini-cabs, they just don't want to because of the training/regulation issues

2. If I encounter an Addison Lee vehicle in a bus lane I will be cycling in front of it at 5mph until it goes back where it is supposed to be and reporting it to the police.

Guardian newspaper is reporting that John Griffin,the chairman of minicab firm Addison Lee was granted an interview with Philip Hammond the transport secretary about minicabs access to bus lanes after Griffin made a £250,000 donation to party. The whole thing stinks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2012/apr/16/minicab-tory-donor

I'd be interested to know what point of law Addison Lee are trying to make their challenge on here. Minicabs have been around for decades but have never been allowed in bus lanes so I can't imagine there's recent decision for them to challenge on grounds of reasonableness.

I guess they will try to use an argument based on competition rules and that black cabs have an unfair advantage. But black cabs are a different service under law with, as Sven points out, with specific obligations as well as rights. I suspect this may be where the legal arguments lie and I wonder therefore whether Addison Lee want to make a more sustained attack on the rights of black cabs with bus lanes just being part of that.

For my part I really do hope Addison Lee lose, 'cause if they win all minicabs will be able to drive in bus lanes too and as someone noted other commercial vehicles might be allowed too. Plus I suspect a lot of private drivers might try it too as it'll suddenly become a lot harder to enforce. If black cabs have to lose their right to keep bus lanes from being a free-for-all that's an Ok trade-off for me but I rarely take black cabs - I'm on my bike instead.

Nah, he'll claim the sun got in his eyes and was momentarily blinded and get a slap on the wrist for his trouble.

I wonder if he'll do the time as well as pay the fine, if one of his drivers kills a n other road user while illegally using these lanes? I'm sure he will!

To be fare as said above you can see his point and also the point made that if his company was let in then effectively you've opened the flood gates and you may as well just call them roads.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that one, Simon!

I'm surprised to see other people think Addison Lee are particularly inconsiderate drivers.

I though it was just me.

In my experience they are by far the worst when it comes to giving enough space when passing.

As Paul M says, its a numbers game - black cabs can reasonably be allowed in because there aren't many of them. Opening it up to mini-cabs means more traffic and hampers the effectiveness of the bus lane for buses (which, to be fair, is the primary consideration in a bus lane). For that reason, it doesnt make sense to let Add Lee drivers in - so the only logical option for change is to kick black cab drivers out.

One other point, though, is that black cabs are able to pick up anyway, so it makes sense to have them closest to the curb, where they can stop to pick up a fare. Since Add Lee drivers should always know in advance where they are picking up, they should be able to organise it so as not to need to use the bus lane.

+ 1 to Paul M.

Whether, objectively, black cabs should be allowed to use bus lanes or not, pragmatically their numbers are relatively small (seriously!) and so their effect on the efficicency of bus lanes quite limited, and the lanes would arguably be underutilised if only buses and cycles used them. (Whether cycles should also have their own exclusive lanes is an entirely different argument. In my view they should).

Black cab numbers will remain small because there are high barriers to entry. You can't buy a hackney licence, and the licence does not apply to the vehicle, as it does in many cities: you have to take a course (the Knowledge) lasting about six months, and pass an exam to get the hackney driver licence. Minicabs vastly outnumber hackney ("Black") cabs and permitting them to use bus lanes would quickly render them pointless. If the distrinction is founf to be unfair, then the only solution is to ban hackneys from bus lanes as well, as the City already does.

Most, though not all, hackney drivers own their own vehicles, at least eventually. The hackney carriage office can force them off the road if they have even slight damage - in principle they can even ground them for being dirty.

Hackney fares are determined by a combination of distance and time, so if a cabbie gets stuck in traffic he is still earning, and the further he goes, the more he earns.

All of this incentivises cabbies to drive in a - relatively - sane and responsible fashion and although I have had run-ins with cabbies, I would have to say they have been rare compared with experience with white vans and, particularly, minicabs including AdLee.

AdLee drivers are "self-employed" but they are definitively not their own bosses the way cabbies are. The business model is not unlike the chair rental system adopted by hairdressers. A driver is paid by the journey and is deducted for the use of the vehicle. There is however a significant difference between Adlee drivers and cabbies, in that many if not all Adlee trips are on a fixed-fare basis. My company has negotiated specific rates for specific distance bands which at their lower ends are more expensive than cabs but at their upper end are cheaper, and in all cases don't compensate drivers for traffic conditions.

The consequences are obvious. Drivers want to pack in as many trips as they possibly can, to maximise their earnings. They are specifically incentivised to stretch the envelope, by driving as fast and as hard as possible, taking risks which cabbies and owner-drivers would not take.

Much of the road danger we face is a consequence of modern employment practices in road haulage and other transport or courier industries - nominally self-employed drivers, on piece rates, encouraged to cram in as many trips or deliveries etc as they possibly can which implies driving too fast, cutting corners, running red lights and infringing bus or cycle lanes where they think they can get away with it. You can't blame the drivers - much - but their employers who have de-risked the business for themselves at the expense of their staff.

For what it's worth, I think Mr. Griffin's argument is absolutely spot on. In particular, I couldn't agree more with:

Quote:

Black Taxis are not a public service, they are a business just like minicabs – and we will fight the injustice in the current legal system that subsidises them as if they provided a public service.

When even a short journey can be £10+ in a black cab there is no way they can be classed as a public service as only the very rich can afford them.

What we might disagree on is the solution; I would remove black cab's right to be in the bus lane. Perhaps this is the only outcome if Addison Lee's argument is won in the courts.

PR stunt, nothing more

I would say that Addison Lee do have a strong case about the competitive advantage that black cabs have. However, if you let them in, then we need to let all mini-cabs in. From there, all commercial traffic could, in theory, lay claim to the lanes. I suspect that whatever the outcome, it isn't going to be in the best interests of the general public.

I've cycled in London for 11 years (I'm sure someone will beat me on that here). It's always tempting to generalise on who are the bad drivers. "Bus drivers are terrible", "Black Cab drivers are the worst", "Addison Lee drivers are the worst - definitely". I don't think you can. I've encountered very good drivers of all descriptions and very bad drivers of all descriptions as well.

Why are Black Cab drivers allowed in bus lanes? On that logic, chauffeur driven cars should be allowed as well?