London cyclists: See what an HGV driver sees with a Changing Places session

To "hexhome"
I do see what you infer but but "whilst approaching a junction" the timing is in the essence. If a truck has passed you then let it go (STOP if you need to), if it is behind you then a defensive (not agressive) manouver will prevent them from passing until you got by the junction. Simple.
My point is I see many cyclists in town areas thinking they are beyond any remit what-so-ever. We get a bad name for exactly the correct reason and it is up the the cyclist to rectify the case mostly.

And next week,

All HGV drivers will be offered the chance of pulling on lycra clothing, strapping a bit of polystyrene to their heads. Balancing on two inches of rubber at 15mph as 40 odd tons of metal death thunders by inches away from them.

@Neil753

I was with you until you started to rant about Hi-vis being a must. How about HGVs slow down and give others space and time to sort themselves out, instead trying to squeeze another two loads in? Other road users have to for you. If you are in a cycle area then look out for cyclist and react accordingly. Do you really think that creating a 20 metre no cycle zone around every HGV, bus, tipper, refuse truck..... is the way forward?

So what you are saying is, the HGV saw me as he approached me from behind and as he pulled out. But once the cab had gone past I became so invisble that the back wheels of trailer slammed against the curb because I was wearing day-glo? Apparently bright coloured cars travelling at 70mph on motorways can not be see until under the HGV wheels. As for cars with headlights on at night, well they are just invisible ain't they.

You can not see unless you are looking! You can not look properly without giving yourself enough time to.

Rant over and back to Utopia before the drugs really wear off.

Having ridden with people who rarely drive (and, frankly, having experienced nearly 40 years of being around other people) it's fairly obvious that one of the biggest causes of trouble of any kind is people simply not understanding what it's like in someone else's shoes. This seems like an entirely wise initiative and I'm not sure why anyone would pooh-pooh it.

But it should only be a coping strategy: we need better cabs, fewer lorries in cities, and an industry that's less blasé about safety (see crackdown operations at the end of this article) - but if this doesn't undermine the progress of engineering out the problems, and saves lives in the meantime, then great.

However, the one point I didn't notice in the discussion so far is cycle lanes. They go up the inside of traffic, and dump people in HGV blind spots. They're teaching people to do something that's manifestly dangerous, and people have been injured and killed as a direct result.

You can influence behaviour all you want, but unless rotten infrastructure is replaced with something adequately safe, you're only treating the symptoms.

Perhaps it might be a useful comparison to have a truck of the type that LCC is promoting which does not require a mass of mirrors and safety kit - simply because the driver and cyclists outside can look directly at each other!

These trucks do exist, and could be specified for almost all of the jobs being done.

As for the articulated truck - you'll hardly ever see one in Central London during the working day. At approaching £300,000 a pop these 44T monsters have to keep rolling at 80Kph on the motorway to pay their way, and the operators won't bring them in to the city if at all possible.

And when you do get up in the big macho cab you might notice that with all the mirrors and cameras there's actually very little in the way of a blind spot at all - but as many Class C and E drivers who take their responsibilities seriously are commenting there is a serious overload of places to keep checking - so bad that it becomes quite a problem actually keeping enough attention on what is in front as you drive forwards.

I've attached a picture of the cab fitted to many of the refuse trucks you'll see in London and with enlightened Councils and operators elsewhere. When you are alongside one of these just see how much of the driver you can see directly. But these cabs are not used for the excellent visibility for cyclists and pedestrians, they are used because the crews can injure themselves climbing up into a high cab.

Almost all of the macho yorkie-driver cab-fitted vehicles running around in London could be using low level cabs like this one - if the political will was there to make it a standard requirement, by say 2025.

So how about showing one of these trucks too so that we can see what could be done if the construction industry was prepared to make the changes

It's a step in the right direction, to sit a cyclist behind the wheel of a stationary lorry at one of these HGV safety awareness initiatives but, as a cyclist who just happens to drive an an articulated lorry for a living, I can say that it's much more difficult in real life, to keep track of every moving cyclist through three screens and seven mirrors, especially when it's raining and when many of those cyclists are wearing "low vis" clothing. Wearing hi-vis gear is probably the single biggest aid to being spotted, particularly if you are in the driver's pheripheral vision, as opposed to their direct vision; which, given the sheer number of mirrors involved, is most of the time.

But even if you are confident that you don't actually need the driver to spot you, lorries are extremely dangerous things, even if they're stationary. Tyres do explode, rigs become decoupled, brakes do fail, loads do shift, tankers do leak dangerous substances, gas tanks can rupture, and invariably these things are all statistically most likely in town. Left hand drive vehicles, or self steering axles, may also catch you out if you creep up the "outside". If you add in the fact that the driver could be inexperienced, tired, drunk, "on a mission", or just plain nasty, there's always going to be some risk when in close proximity to lorries, so exercise caution, and demonstrate that caution to your peers.

Many of us are working hard within the transport industry to reduce the number of accidents involving lorries and cyclists, but we need experienced cyclists to help those cyclists less experienced, and perhaps by making the demand for well designed hi vis clothing as ubiquitous as the demand for decent helmets.

Quote:

If the driver can't see the near front - fit a camera and display!

The problem with that is it's just adding to the plethora of information that the driver is already trying to process.

You can fit as many screens, TVs, mirrors etc as you want but with 10 mirrors, the driver might be looking in mirrors 1 & 2 while a cyclist merrily travels through mirrors 7, 8 & 9 completely unseen.

Factor in the driver trying to negotiate unfamiliar roads, listen to the sat nav, watch for other traffic, get it through gaps that weren't really designed for 44-tons of arctic and you can see why accidents happen. It doesn't matter if you're in the right or not - you're not going to win a fight with a lorry so don't put yourself in a position where you're going to have to do that. Yes, of course drivers should take every care possible - not saying otherwise - but for God's sake cyclists, make their job just that tiny bit easier!

Maybe surprisingly to some on here, I actually find lorries amongst the most considerate road users but maybe that's cos I treat them with total respect and (believe it or not), that pays dividends - they see all kinds of stupid driving and riding all day so they actually appreciate those rare instances where someone understands what they're putting up with and they reciprocate. I understand what they're putting up with because I've done what this article suggests - sat in the lorry.

Many's the time on my commutes that I've got a friendly toot or a left-right-left on the indicators for letting a lorry through or where I've waved my thanks to a lorry who's hung back and flashed his lights to let me into a gap. Try it, it makes life a lot easier!

It's all good and well to try and stay away. And frankly, if you're filtering on the inside of any vehicle without a good idea on traffic light phasing, you're f-ing reckless.

However, it's time that HGVs have proper safety equipment fitted.

If the driver can't see the near front - fit a camera and display!

Same with the side of the HGVs, some new designs have removed the mirrors in favour of a set of cameras, completely removing blind spots.

In fact, a full set of mirrors should already eliminate the blind spot. However, the driver needs to use those mirrors instead of the phone, iPad, eating...

I don't usually post on forums, mostly because somebody else has already said what I wanted to say, but I have to say that as a lifelong cyclist (in one form or another) and an HGV driver, GO AND SEE what an HGV driver can't see. This is a great idea and may open a few peoples eyes.

Listen to what this young lady says...

"A cyclist is just about visible coming up on the left -- but the improvement once you add a high-viz jacket is astonishing."

Good points. I see no problem at all with making it illegal
for cyclists to filter up the inside of lorries. Filter inside cars and then take the outside with lorries. Regardless of the lorries lines of sight, whether they are indicating or not, or texting, eating, drinking etc - if you are not on the inside when they turn you will not be killed.

All this hand wringing and nit picking is akin to
insisting that prop engines have full safety guards. Don't go near the dangerous moving thing and all will be fine.

It's this aspect of sharing the road that many cyclists don't get and will not reciprocate over.

20 years commuting in London before I woke up and fled. Mainly Stoke Newington - Holborn and SN to Camden Town. Don't filter inside large vehicles. It's pretty simple stuff.

Admirable I'm sure but 15 years too late. There are some people that just dont get how articulated vehicles, or coaches and buses negotiate our roads either through being naive, from a lack of road experience or a lower level of anticipation skills. This will help tremendously for those that may consider themselves inexperienced road users. Its a good thing. Large vehicles are dangerous and exceedingly tough, I am aware how many cyclists lose their lives versus lorries each year. Cyclists are highly vulnerable and squishy and the blame is secondary when it comes to staying alive. In order to establish blame and seek justice you need to stay alive. Ride defensively in traffic always. I do get Guyz2010 sentiments. If you get passed by an asshole LGV driver where you should not because he's in a hurry and has committed traffic offences its not worth losing your life over. Brake and drop back behind the vehicle, dont get caught up on the inside. Ever.

"I don't really see what all the fuss by cyclist is about."

May I assist?
A. Most of the incidents actually involve HGVs hitting cyclists from behind or overtaking and then turning left - so it isn't about what you, as a cyclist do with regard to going up in the inside.

B. If the vehicle isn't fit for purpose -as some posters have said - then it is no good for an environment where cyclists and pedestrians are at risk.

So, a good idea to be not going close to an HGV if you can avoid it, but there really is a lot to make a fuss about.

I don't really see what all the fuss by cyclist is about. KEEP OUT THE WAY OF HGV's IF YOU APPROACH THEM FROM BEHIND. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE TRY TO PASS THEM ON EITHER SIDE.
Sorry but its so simple. Watch for their indicator lights. If they over take you let them go, brake or stop pedalling!
You wouldn't go near a wasps nest don't go near HGV's if you can help it.
My next rant...ALL pedestrian barriers at junctions need to be moved to allowed an escape route for cyclist. They only need be moved a metre inward if theres room.
Yours truly a sensible cyclist 15000 miles in three years with no incidents.

There are no cyclists outside of London.

It doesnt matter what your wear, they are not looking for cyclists.

It is a good idea. But imagine a car design in which you simply could not see other traffic. It would not be allowed on the roads.

I think it's a good idea but what how about the truckers also spending a few hours cycling in heavy traffic...

As many of you as possible, please, please, please take this opportunity, and encourage your cycling friends. It is a very simple display, but it is incredibly insightful into what it is like for a truck driver. This can guide your cycling to help you stay safe.

I went to the one they had at the Prudential Ride London and it was very good. Sadly few cyclists took the opportunity to see what they were doing.