Space for Cycling campaign launches standalone website

arfa wrote:

Zanf, reading some of your other comments, I wonder if you have participated in any of the space for cycling rides ?

Yawn.....

In answer to your very dull inquiry, yes, I have been on a few S4C rides, as well as a number of other cycling campaigns over the last few years, and other 'reclaim the streets'/liveable cities ones over the last 25 years. Yes, I know quite a few people involved in S4C, at varying levels of the organisation. Yes, anyone who knows me, knows my viewpoint that any UK cycling campaign whose remit is narrow and only about cycling is doomed.

The fact is, as I have seen in comments on various other threads, most people getting involved in cycle campaigning, have painted themselves into a corner with regards to what they aim to achieve, and then made that unachievable by the methods by which they aim to achieve it.

arfa wrote:

Perhaps a bit more publicity that a bicycle is a suitable means of transport around town for children, women, families etc as well as angry young men might garner a bit of broader support and move the debate from the fringe to the centre ground ? This is the only way to bring about change unfortunately in a consensus driven democracy and "cyclists" like it or not, have a major PR mountain to climb.

Just the fact that you even think like this points out that you have lost your ideological argument/'PR mountain' already.

teaboy wrote:

Why not get some made up with People's Front of Judea instead of LCC, as that seems to be the level that this current discussion has lowered itself to. You seem to be annoyed that one campaign group is trying to do something. They don't make a secret of the fact that they're campaigning for London cyclists - there's a clue in the name, and in the 'About Us' section of their website.

Is the aims of the campaign valid? If so, support it. If not, don't.

It's great that other campaign groups are supportive of the LCC campaign, as the aims in London transfer to pretty much everywhere, but to focus on the logo in the bottom right corner is, quite literally, missing the point.

I understand LCC is for London cyclists, I have repeated that I understand that and I also expressed my admiration for the work they do.

What you, and the exasperated Bez below you seem to be missing, or just point blank ignoring is what I want clarifying, is the Space4Cycling Campaign for all cyclists round the country or is it just for London cyclists?

That's the Space4cycling campaign - Not LCC.

If it's just for London cyclists, then fair enough, but then what was the point in the Space4Cycling protests in Manchester and Birmingham?

Again, I understand LCC is for London cyclists, please don't point that out again.

farrell wrote:

teaboy wrote:

Why not get some made up with People's Front of Judea instead of LCC, as that seems to be the level that this current discussion has lowered itself to. You seem to be annoyed that one campaign group is trying to do something. They don't make a secret of the fact that they're campaigning for London cyclists - there's a clue in the name, and in the 'About Us' section of their website.

Is the aims of the campaign valid? If so, support it. If not, don't.

It's great that other campaign groups are supportive of the LCC campaign, as the aims in London transfer to pretty much everywhere, but to focus on the logo in the bottom right corner is, quite literally, missing the point.

I understand LCC is for London cyclists, I have repeated that I understand that and I also expressed my admiration for the work they do.

What you, and the exasperated Bez below you seem to be missing, or just point blank ignoring is what I want clarifying, is the Space4Cycling Campaign for all cyclists round the country or is it just for London cyclists?

That's the Space4cycling campaign - Not LCC.

If it's just for London cyclists, then fair enough, but then what was the point in the Space4Cycling protests in Manchester and Birmingham?

Again, I understand LCC is for London cyclists, please don't point that out again.

From my understanding of it (I may be wrong) is that it is primarily a London campaign, or at least started as such (hence the LCC logo). Other campaign groups also want similar things and are supportive of the LCC effort, and the Space4Cycling campaign is now beginning to take hold as an umbrella idea nationally, hence the new website. I'd be really surprised if anyone involved in the London campaign didn't want similar things for other cities. Where is goes from here is anyone's guess, as personally I feel it isn't defined in a way that can be easily explained, or argued.

2byte wrote:

I’m a bit disappointed there seems to be developing a partisan edge against LCC, we should be uniting across the country to make the changes we want to see.

Yes every city needs to mobilize their residents to support the movement – it needs to grow out from a grass roots level. Cycling by its very nature is a local activity. Just because LCC started the campaign and have taken a leading position and launched this Space for Cycling website, does not mean they are locking out any other city. That’s just idiocy.

LCC’s remit is London – but the principals are the same nationally, if you doubt their motives read the manifesto on their website. http://lcc.org.uk/pages/space-for-cycling

Instead of slagging organisations off who are trying to make positive change for us and our children, maybe we should be trying to support each other and sharing resources where possible. Together we are stronger people.

I don't think anyone is slagging them off for their work, they do lots of work for London and the Space4Cycling campaign is a good one, but if they do genuinely want this to be a national campaign then why not have stickers and signs without the LCC logo on them? That isn't to besmirch the good name of the LCC but surely it's easy to comprehend that outside of London a sticker or poster proclaiming "Space4Cycling - London Cycling Campaign" is going to have even less effect?

If they want everything to be branded with London Cycling Campaign then Space4Cycling they should be honest and say it is Space4Cycling4London and don't pretend they actually care about the Space4Cycling campaign outside of London.

At the risk of repeating myself, don't shit in my lunch box and then try and tell me it's a Lion bar.

farrell wrote:

If they want everything to be branded with London Cycling Campaign then Space4Cycling they should be honest and say it is Space4Cycling4London and don't pretend they actually care about the Space4Cycling campaign outside of London.

At the risk of repeating myself, don't shit in my lunch box and then try and tell me it's a Lion bar.

I do not know where you get your information? Pretty sure LCC do not have any trademark on the “Space4Cycling” or “Space for Cycling” phrases.

If you don’t like the taste, there is nothing stopping you preparing your own lunchbox. Print your own stickers and signs – in fact every city or anybody who supports the campaign should.

2byte wrote:

farrell wrote:

If they want everything to be branded with London Cycling Campaign then Space4Cycling they should be honest and say it is Space4Cycling4London and don't pretend they actually care about the Space4Cycling campaign outside of London.

At the risk of repeating myself, don't shit in my lunch box and then try and tell me it's a Lion bar.

I do not know where you get your information? Pretty sure LCC do not have any trademark on the “Space4Cycling” or “Space for Cycling” phrases.

If you don’t like the taste, there is nothing stopping you preparing your own lunchbox. Print your own stickers and signs – in fact every city or anybody who supports the campaign should.

Funnily enough, I got a couple quotes as I was getting some Space4Cycling car stickers made up, until LCC's response of 'why shouldn't we take credit for it, it's our campaign'. That put me off fronting up my own money to boost a campaign that may or may not be of benefit to me.

If this is genuinely a nationwide campaign to change things for cyclists all round the country then they shouldn't take umbrage to stickers not having LCC on them should they? I, and no doubt others, want a modicum of reassurance before handing over a couple of hundred quid to make my contribution to a cause that later turns out to be just a nationwide campaign for the benefit of only London cyclists.

I hope this makes it clearer for you because at the moment it feels like it's going round in circles.

farrell wrote:

If this is genuinely a nationwide campaign to change things for cyclists all round the country then they shouldn't take umbrage to stickers not having LCC on them should they? I, and no doubt others, want a modicum of reassurance before handing over a couple of hundred quid to make my contribution to a cause that later turns out to be just a nationwide campaign for the benefit of only London cyclists.

I hope this makes it clearer for you because at the moment it feels like it's going round in circles.

I’m very surprised to hear they reacted like that, and sorry it put you off sticker printing for your local campaign. It definitely should not be a competition between cities and I have no doubt people in Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol etc are smart enough to join and support their own local cycling campaign group and lobby their own local politicians if this is a cause that matters to them.

arfa wrote:

After Alan Neve was killed earlier this year by an HGV in holborn, I turned out for his ride because there is an element of if we don't stand together, he would become another anonymous statistic.

So what about all the cyclists who died prior to Mr Neve? Are they just anonymous statistics?

It was with the death of Mr Neve and the 5 minute ride past the site of his death that spurred you into action? Exactly what action have you taken up since that ride?

zanf wrote:

It was with the death of Mr Neve and the 5 minute ride past the site of his death that spurred you into action? Exactly what action have you taken up since that ride?

Exactly what is the purpose of this comment? Are you sent by TfL to piss off campaigners or are you just a whinging troll?

2byte wrote:

zanf wrote:

It was with the death of Mr Neve and the 5 minute ride past the site of his death that spurred you into action? Exactly what action have you taken up since that ride?

Exactly what is the purpose of this comment? Are you sent by TfL to piss off campaigners or are you just a whinging troll?

If that is the level of your intelligence then please go ahead and add yourself to the statistics of dead cyclists because you're adding fuck all value to anything else.

The questions I posed are valid. Going on the LCC's 5 minute non-disruptive 'protest' ride is the very definition of inactivity. It does nothing, changes nothing and will achieve nothing, especially if they do absolutely nothing after it.

Thinking otherwise is the pinnacle of stupidity.

zanf wrote:

It does nothing, changes nothing and will achieve nothing.

I hope you’re wrong – and I think you’re attacking the wrong people.

2byte wrote:

zanf wrote:

It does nothing, changes nothing and will achieve nothing.

I hope you’re wrong – and I think you’re attacking the wrong people.

Then sit in your sheltered little world, hoping I'm wrong and that the way our towns and cities are designed changes with ineffectual non-disruptive 'protest' rides and campaigns that are partisan and easily counter-argued.

If you want infrastructure on the level that it is in the Netherlands and Denmark then you need to get off your arse, stop thinking that the LCC is going to achieve it and re-examine exactly how the Dutch achieved their paradigm shift. (I'll give you a clue, it wasnt sitting around singing kumbahyah while trying not to disrupt traffic flow).

Any campaign that is focused as "___ for cycling" will fail. It will be seen by vehicular drivers as trying to steal space from them, disruptive to traffic flow all the while cyclists make no visible monetary contribution and benefiting a minority at a greater expense to the majority.

Frame it as "Stop the child murder" and any counter is immediately put on the backfoot ("So by opposing redesigning our roads, you support the continued killing of kids?"), or even as "Cities Fit For People" and you counter the argument about monetary contribution, you strip away the focus from it being about cyclists passively "asking" for space and to be treated with respect.

You have to ask yourself how a campaign org like the LCC has existed for 35 years, has collected subs from people all that time, and along with the CTC, has presided over a collapse of cycling numbers yet comes up with a weak campaign such as this?

How the Dutch got their cycle paths

The most effective government initiative that has reduced traffic numbers (and consequently KSI's and pollution) in my lifetime was the GLC initiated "Fare's Fair" in 1982. If Boris did something similar now backed with changing the infrastructure (which he absolutely would never, nor could do), he would be voted lifetime mayor, despite being a complete turd.

zanf wrote:

2byte wrote:

zanf wrote:

It does nothing, changes nothing and will achieve nothing.

I hope you’re wrong – and I think you’re attacking the wrong people.

Then sit in your sheltered little world, hoping I'm wrong and that the way our towns and cities are designed changes with ineffectual non-disruptive 'protest' rides and campaigns that are partisan and easily counter-argued.

If you want infrastructure on the level that it is in the Netherlands and Denmark then you need to get off your arse, stop thinking that the LCC is going to achieve it and re-examine exactly how the Dutch achieved their paradigm shift. (I'll give you a clue, it wasnt sitting around singing kumbahyah while trying not to disrupt traffic flow).

Any campaign that is focused as "___ for cycling" will fail. It will be seen by vehicular drivers as trying to steal space from them, disruptive to traffic flow all the while cyclists make no visible monetary contribution and benefiting a minority at a greater expense to the majority.

Frame it as "Stop the child murder" and any counter is immediately put on the backfoot ("So by opposing redesigning our roads, you support the continued killing of kids?"), or even as "Cities Fit For People" and you counter the argument about monetary contribution, you strip away the focus from it being about cyclists passively "asking" for space and to be treated with respect.

You have to ask yourself how a campaign org like the LCC has existed for 35 years, has collected subs from people all that time, and along with the CTC, has presided over a collapse of cycling numbers yet comes up with a weak campaign such as this?

How the Dutch got their cycle paths

The most effective government initiative that has reduced traffic numbers (and consequently KSI's and pollution) in my lifetime was the GLC initiated "Fare's Fair" in 1982. If Boris did something similar now backed with changing the infrastructure (which he absolutely would never, nor could do), he would be voted lifetime mayor, despite being a complete turd.

I agree almost 100% with this. Cyclists are already seen as an outgroup, so unless you are currently a 'cyclist' (not just using a bike for transport) then you are unlikely to get involved. If there is to be the change we need then others have to be involved too, and the whole psyche of road use in this country needs to change. This means from government, the courts, parents and schools, policing and infrastructure. I don't know how to tackle it, but groups like the LCC have more weight than individuals. Whether what they're currently doing has an effect or not is debatable (obviously!)

I do think there is a place for the protest rides. It allowed an emotional outlet after the death of a rider. It allows people to 'do something' and feel involved, while someone else does the real work that cannot be done on the street.

teaboy wrote:

Cyclists are already seen as an outgroup, so unless you are currently a 'cyclist' (not just using a bike for transport) then you are unlikely to get involved.

There is actually a huge amount of suppressed demand for cycling that was demonstrated by the token day out ride back in August but those people will only get involved once they see that they benefit on several levels: the roads are better for them, safer for their kids and their local area is a calmer, more pleasant place to live.

teaboy wrote:

If there is to be the change we need then others have to be involved too, and the whole psyche of road use in this country needs to change. This means from government, the courts, parents and schools, policing and infrastructure.

The onus needs to be placed on altering the behaviour of those who use their cars to drive 100m to Greggs because its more convenient than any other form of transport. (A slight theatrical image there but it should be that town centres are best served by buses, walking and cycling. That cars are made to be the least convenient form of transport)

teaboy wrote:

I don't know how to tackle it, but groups like the LCC have more weight than individuals. Whether what they're currently doing has an effect or not is debatable (obviously!)

IMO, they are ineffective and have been for all of their existence, just as the CTC has for the latter part of theirs. Maybe its that they are still run by the old guard clinging on, or those how are far too passive, or lacking in the ability to see how transport planning/social wellbeing all joins up? Maybe its that the LCC's remit is too narrow? It has been pointed out to me by people involved with them that they have charity status and are too close with TfL/local authorities to dare upset the applecart. If thats the case then they will never overstep the mark, which frankly, is exactly whats required.

teaboy wrote:

I do think there is a place for the protest rides. It allowed an emotional outlet after the death of a rider. It allows people to 'do something' and feel involved, while someone else does the real work that cannot be done on the street.

My point was not that there is no place for protest rides but that there is absolutely no point in organising protests as the LCC has done: aiming to limit its time, and its disruptive effect, to the minimum. If that is how they are going to do it, why bother?

Anyone with basic knowledge of Londons traffic flow will be able to work out that a few protests as specific junctions would create a city wide gridlock. For example, a lorry took the wrong lane entering the Blackwall tunnel, got stuck and consequently gridlock East London for around 4 hours.

Do that the next time a child, pedestrian or cyclist is killed by vehicles and you have a very powerful tool that will bring those with the administrative power to the table to deal with the issue: either stop the public sanctioned murder occurring on the streets or risk having the city brought to a standstill every time someone is killed.

On the long term side, present better solutions (devised by local people in conjunction with those with urban design knowledge/skills) and you start to control how your environment is shaped, rather than the passive "please give us some space and maybe a bit of your respect".

"So what about all the cyclists who died prior to Mr Neve? Are they just anonymous statistics?

It was with the death of Mr Neve and the 5 minute ride past the site of his death that spurred you into action? Exactly what action have you taken up since that ride?[/quote]

In response to your question, Mr Neve's untimely end was one of the first where space for cycling galvanised a certain amount of publicity and no, the many road deaths before are not just anonymous statistics. I am not sure why constructive efforts of an organisation seem to be so inflammatory for you.

As for your second question, I could point you in the direction of engaging with your MP as I have done but I am not sure that would be satisfactory for you either.

The Dutch "stop the Kindemoort" campaign effective as it was, was a long haul and is where we find ourselves now. Shouting down the constructive efforts of others though unfortunately is not going to help anyone.

Bez wrote:

Interesting comment, what's the actual story behind it?

Just their attitude on Twitter when it was suggested that someone should do Space4Cycling stickers that didn't have "London Cycling Campaign" on them for use outside of London. It was basically 'why wouldn't we want our logo on it, we deserve the credit'.

Given that the general vibe of the Space4Cycling campaign in Manchester and Birmingham was people coming together under one banner they came across as a bit divisive to me and others.

I'm not sure that's true - Greater Manchester Cycling Campaign could be heard thanking LCC for their help/advice in the build-up to their Manchester ride last month. And there's been lots of discussion about Manchester and Birmingham space for cycling protests on the LCC twitter account too.

I'm an LCC member and i'D encourage them to make it as big as possible - the UK needs a strong voice

fluffy_mike wrote:

I'm not sure that's true - Greater Manchester Cycling Campaign could be heard thanking LCC for their help/advice in the build-up to their Manchester ride last month. And there's been lots of discussion about Manchester and Birmingham space for cycling protests on the LCC twitter account too.

I'm an LCC member and i'D encourage them to make it as big as possible - the UK needs a strong voice

GMCC probably have lots of praise for LCC, and rightly so, it just left a sour taste when they appeared to get shirty about removing the LCC 'branding' from the Space4Cycling stickers.