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news
“I wholeheartedly disagree with his approach” – YouTube driving instructor Ashley Neal on CyclingMikey
Footballer-turned driving instructor Ashley Neal says that he “wholeheartedly” disagrees with the approach taken by fellow YouTuber CyclingMikey in trying to make roads safer, saying that by confronting law-breaking drivers he actually creates many road rage incidents.
Neal, who runs a driving school in Liverpool, visited London’s Regents Park and the junction nicknamed Gandalf Corner where, for several years now, Mike van Erp – Cycling Mikey – has regularly positioned himself, filming law-breaking drivers often on their mobile phone, or going the wrong side of a keep left sign to try and avoid queueing traffic.
In an eight-minute YouTube video, Neal explains how Gandalf Corner, which he describes as an “unremarkable” junction got its nickname, highlights some examples of law-breaking drivers there – including by using footage from CyclingMikey’s own YouTube channel.
“He’s caught many people over the years,” Neal explains. “Most are reported to the police. Some receive fines and points on the licence, others just have driver improvement courses, and there’s a few who don’t get any punishment whatsoever.”
Certainly, Neal has no truck with drivers who break the law – he points out that “impatience is normally the reason many road users take this short cut, however, this puts others at risk,” and that “pedestrians are only going to be expecting vehicles to be coming from their right as they cross this section of road, they wouldn’t expect vehicles to be coming from the opposite side of the road.”
He also highlights that van Erp “also catches a lot of people on their mobile phone, usually when they’re just queueing in traffic,” although he quickly qualifies that by adding, “that doesn’t mean that using your mobile phone while queueing in traffic is allowed,” mentioning the stricter laws that came into force earlier this year.
What Neal does appear to have an issue with, however, is van Erp – and other cyclists who use cameras – submitting that footage to the police for potential action to be taken against the motorists concerned, even though that is something that police forces across the country actively encourage.
“Mikey also takes great pride in showcasing all the fines that people have got and the points they got on the licence,” he says. “This isn't something that I would do. Most of you understand my educational stance on things. I've never reported anyone for anything.
“That doesn't mean reporting is a bad thing. It just depends on your own single circumstances. And for me, I run a driving school in Liverpool. I'm responsible for many instructors and all their students. If I was reporting every single thing that I saw, the negativity towards those instructors and students would definitely have a negative effect on road safety.
“The next thing is that if I reported every single offence that I saw I’d have no time to do anything else,” he adds.
Both have huge reach through their social media channels. Neal’s YouTube channel has 106,000 subscribers, compared to just over 80,000 on CyclingMikey’s channel – and views of individual videos posted by van Erp often run into several millions, while the driving instructor’s most popular upload is currently 3,000 short of seven figures.
Neal does use his YouTube presence to educate motorists over how to drive safely, as well as highlighting examples of poor driving (including, ironically, his own, as highlighted in the link below) – but in this case, he also points out that some cyclists break the law, too.
“What Mikey has done is actually rallied many cyclists to take a similar reporting approach,” he says. “This may have a positive impact nationally on stopping people using their mobile phones, but honestly, I think it's created a different problem. I've actually asked Mikey about this on his videos before but he didn't respond.
“Quite often you can see on the footage while he’s challenging the motorist for contravening the keep left bollard, cyclists doing exactly the same.
“Now, I understand that anyone driving a tonne’s worth of metal is going to do a hell of a lot more damage than anyone riding a bike, but with the speeds involved at this junction and at this crossing area, honestly, it becomes a lot less relevant.
“Some motorists think because of the lack of requirement for number plates and licences to ride a bicycle, cyclists are getting away with things that motorists don't.
“I understand that this is a false equivalence and the updates to the Highway Code back this up. But this way of looking out for your own is wrong, you're either pro road safety or not, This disparity between different types of road users just causes resentment and divide.
“We've now got legions of cyclists, all around the country, trying to capture that moment and shouting ‘you're on camera, you know’.
“If you catch someone committing an offence, just report it if you wish to. Plainly and simply we need to be building bridges, not creating divide. All roads need to be shared safely and sensibly.”
“If you haven’t seen Mikey’s videos, please check them out. And also, I'd like you to tell me whether you find them entertaining, whether they help with. road safety or whether they hinder,” Neal continues.
“In my personal opinion, I wholeheartedly disagree with his approach, he effectively camps out here and creates many of these road rage incidents, all of his own accord.
“He could just record the offenders and then report them to the police anyway, without standing in and blocking the road. I've actually seen on a number of his uploads different types of road users taking to the pavement because of his actions,” he adds.
What Neal does not mention, but van Erp has in numerous media appearances, including on the road.cc Podcast, is one of the principal reasons why he is so passionate about making the roads safer and bringing law-breaking motorists to justice – his father was killed by a drink driver while van Erp was still a teenager.
> Tired of road crime”: CyclingMikey on episode 16 of the road.cc Podcast
A number of van Erp’s followers on Twitter expressed support for him, with @velobetty for example saying that while she usually respects Neal’s opinions, “I think he's pretty wrong on this one.”
To be honest, I'm just absolutely sick to death of being, metaphorically, punched in the face and then being told to just get ok with everybody.
— Elisabeth Anderson 🚲🐺 (@velobetty) May 22, 2022
‘We should be building bridges’
Fuck that, I’ve been hit by 3 drivers and had my back broken in 3 places through one of those interactions.
Reporting drivers can only have a positive impact - it is literally the consequences of their own actions.
— Harry 🚲 (@nottheUCI) May 22, 2022
Van Erp himself – currently enjoying a cycling holiday on the Continent – is aware of the video, but says he won’t be watching it.
Interestingly, I believe the parks police minuted at a parks meeting that my activities had produced a substantial improvement in safety at the corner. That’s confirmed by a contact I have there who said far fewer people dare to do it nowadays.
— CyclingMikey along the Rhine 🇳🇱🇪🇺🇿🇼🇺🇦 (@MikeyCycling) May 23, 2022
Cheers. Not going to bother watching it. I don’t rate his opinion.
— CyclingMikey along the Rhine 🇳🇱🇪🇺🇿🇼🇺🇦 (@MikeyCycling) May 22, 2022
Simon joined road.cc as news editor in 2009 and is now the site’s community editor, acting as a link between the team producing the content and our readers. A law and languages graduate, published translator and former retail analyst, he has reported on issues as diverse as cycling-related court cases, anti-doping investigations, the latest developments in the bike industry and the sport’s biggest races. Now back in London full-time after 15 years living in Oxford and Cambridge, he loves cycling along the Thames but misses having his former riding buddy, Elodie the miniature schnauzer, in the basket in front of him.
Latest Comments
- levestane 3 sec ago
Three time less means one third of (divide by 3)? Would need a subtraction to go negative?
- FionaJJ 54 min 57 sec ago
Just yesterday I saw a driver (in 4x4) take a slightly sharper corner at speed, very tight to the kerb. In this place there's a high wall parallel...
- chrisonabike 1 hour 19 min ago
Apologies - you're quite right! Something about presentation and comprehension...
- wtjs 1 hour 40 min ago
You can find out whether they're lying about 'taking action' by asking them what they actually did. When they refuse to tell you, citing various...
- chrisonabike 6 hours 25 min ago
Also don't forget - Sustrans are a charity *....
- chrisonabike 6 hours 36 min ago
Yes ... but (just due to the large numbers of people affected) this likely would only proceed in the UK at a very ... cautious ... pace....
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Arsehole in the van not with standing, how did they manage to get a risk assessment allowing a race (a group not a TT) group to be competing on ...
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I think reviewer completely missed the point here trying to match bike's name with what it can do. Ribble is namin git's bike weirdly, the...
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Bit of googling gone wrong in the article - the JAT is the Junction Assessment Tool, the Joint Approval Team appears to be a coutner terrorism...
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188 comments
The feedback is unlikely to make them change their habit of looking at their phone every 60 seconds to see if anyone gave them a stroke. I agree it might help on odd ocassions but most times you will be seen at best as an interfering busybody.
The trouble is we all ignore laws when it suits us. Some are arcane, some unenforcible, some nobody knows about. Apparently most of us commit about 32 different offences every year! Who knew vacuuming between 6pm and 8am on a weekday was illegal! It's not that we think we are above the law. We just tend to think we will not do any harm if we carry a plank of wood down a street. Go at 75 on the motorway, sneak a look at a phone while in a queue, cycle without a front light when it is getting dusk. If someone points it out you shrug your shoulders and take the punishment, you don't need telling, you already knew it was illegal.
However, there's a lot of drivers that don't understand that driving too close to a cyclist is dangerous and illegal, so it does make sense to confront drivers that do that.
That said, I try to not confront drivers except when I'm really pissed off or angry at the time and leave it to the cam footage instead. I get that Mikey has made his cycling into a bit of a crusade following his father's death, so I can totally understand why he feels the need to confront drivers about their behaviour and he has every right to do so.
Copy of email to driving instructor following a close pass today.
"This was the pass made by your driver under instruction earlier today from my point of view.
Please bear in mind that my camera is centrally mounted and that the (exceedingly poor) cycle lane marked here is actually less than the width of my handlebars. I can send you the full video if you wish to analyse the incident further.
1.5m is a minimum safe distance for overtaking in slow moving traffic. If you cannot allow the minimum distance, do not overtake until you can.
Regards"
Got a reply within the hour to say that the instructor was sorry and had taken the incident "on board" whatever that means.
NFA as far as I am concerned.
Never mind that they've taken it on board, how is it possible that a highly trained, skilled, tested driving instructor needed to be told that passing so close to a cyclist was against the law and dangerous?
So, along with the road laws being extremely driver-centric and not fit for purpose, it now appears that training and testing of driving instructors is also not fit for purpose. Does anyone know the standards for becomming a driving instructor?
Yes, and the overwhelming majority of drivers would fail miserably unless they had been trained over a considerable period of time. The driving test is conducted by a senior DVSA examiner and is easily to IAM standard. Many, many candidates fail even after training.
The test of instructional ability examines the candidates' in-car teaching, sometimes with a real pupil and sometimes with an examiner playing the role. It isn't easy, there is a significant failure rate. And once the candidate has passed he/she is retested every few years to the same standard. Again there are failures.
So far so good. Now the downsides. Although the tests have been passed and the candidate is on the register of ADIs who is to say they will maintain the standards? Human nature will, for some folk, lead inevitably to short cuts and a decline in performance. The same could be said of your doctor, dentist or member of parliament. What is the answer to this? I certainly don't know.
And the behaviour of the regulating agency, the DVSA, has often been questioned in these matters. Some interested parties claim that retests are not done often enough and that it is too easy for an instructor to stall the process, sometimes for years. Others say that instructors with lamentable pass rates, and there are some, should be taken to task more quickly.
As with most things improvements could be made but at the cost of money and time and would risk the goodwill of the majority of hardworking instructors.
Dashcam with DVSA able to demand the contents of the card at any time during or after a lesson? Or maybe an obligation to make footage available by uploading it for review.
And facilitate anonymous form submission by pupils where poor behaviour - whether poor quality tutoring, aggression towards other road users, foul language or inappropriate behaviour towards the pupil - can be kept on file for review.
Professions such as finance have continuous professional development as a means of keeping up standards. I guess that is not sufficient, but I know a friend who actually has tests each year to ensure their financial knowledge is up to date.
Plenty near me that certainly pass close. The worrying ones I find are when you can feel the air move as they go pass at 60 + and then move out further to overtake you once they have passed you. You know they are driving beyond their ability which is worrying. Can't confront those ones they are in the next parish in about 30 seconds and gone, hopefully never to be seen again.
Never taken a driver to task about a pass, never even managed to catch up with one! I have muttered a few inelegant phrases though.
Yes! Then invariably stay out there for aaages.
You've been passed by him too.
I agree. I think it will encourage bad driving, increase the hatred for cyclists and make their drive unsafe for the rest of their journey due to the road rage.
The feedback is better recieved later when the driver is in a better mindset by a letter from the police.
It sounds like we should avoid you then, if you hate cyclists...
I personally wouldn't argue with an enraged person armed with a motor vehicle but I think it's beside the point. If you fly into a rage at the sight of a cyclist then whatever the cyclist does - other than not existing - is irrelevant.
I'd actually suggest that if you're unable to keep your cool to the extent that your driving suffers you need parting from your driving licence at least, and soon.
I think some poor driving is just "humans" - that's why we need segregated infra. Some people are just ignorant (we only test once...), have lost their skills or become complacent. Education could help here.
I knew someone in the probation service who dealt with some people with "anger management" issues who seemed to agree with that general diagnosis - a few bad ones but most sad.
I ride by the way. Like most who've replied, you probably didn't get past that first line of my post. It's fine. But appreciate the reply that has nothing to do with the point I made.
There seems to be a bit of an echo on your keyboard. You do keep saying "that has nothing to do with the point I made" and "read what I wrote" without apparently considering what people wrote - or indeed reading it.
Anyway if you - or indeed Ashley - have any ideas about how to deal with angry people who want to assault me with / from their cars despite me neither having a camera nor being CyclingMikey I'm sure I'll read it, promise! If you want to have a go at explaining the connection between what anyone else does with a camera and "making the road more dangerous for the rest of us" that would interest too.
I don't think Ashley's being misinterpreted here. Aside from his videos a couple of posters have had exchanges with him on his sites about other stuff he's said about cycling which didn't seem sensible. Doesn't seem anyone was missing anything. He's just not quite right on all things to do with cycling on roads but not prepared to admit it. Understandable as someone focussed on driving, disappointing in a driving instructor putting himself out there to
sell thingseducate drivers.The evidence would tend to suggest otherwise, and immediate pointing out of misbehaviour being much more effective than punishment months later. As for it increasing hatred of cyclists by drivers who already appear to hate them, or are at least callously indifferent to their safety, I beg to differ on that too.
Any person who hates another person solely on the grounds of their means of transport is most certainly beyond any logical response anyway.
What evidence? Please send me it.
Any person who hates another person solely on the grounds of their means of transport is most certainly beyond any logical response anyway.
Unless your deaf and blind, this is very much the case for many ignorant drivers towards cyclists and ignorant cyclists towards drivers. Just read the comments here for example. I'd love a middle ground but neither side wants to hear it.
To quote Eton Rifle "Illiterate twat. Get back to the Daily Heil. You're fooling no-one."
Your purpose here is clearly to sow dissent and confusion by pretending to be reasonable and open to argument when you are entrenched in your position.
I appreciate the conscientiousness and endurace of sowers of dissent. They normally pop up, claim it's a hive mind / echo chamber / collection of sheep or of old men nodding over their beer here but then try to change the world regardless.
Mind you - if they are indeed cyclists (maybe should qualify that "as opposed to just people on bikes") that would be in character.
Appreciate it. 🙄
I don't follow his youtube so don't know if he still does it, but most of the time he did that previously, it was because he was filiming Mobile Phone use and almost had to get in the drivers face to film what it was being used for. Watching a video or checking instagram, not a problem, texting or calling, against the law.
Now the law is changed he probably doesn't need to confront them in the same way, although mentioning at the time probably means they stop using at that time so he could have saved a collision further on.
He did say he doesn't need a 4k camera anymore as he doesn't need to capture the screen detail.
Might have a wait a few months to see if he gets as close in his videos.
As a cyclist and reading these comments
I think Ashley has a valid point.
Don't encourage road rage.
Road rage can encourage drivers to use their cars as a weopon and cause harm to you or those around (there are so many viral videos of this).
Simply, record and report. Move on with your life.
However, Ashley also points out, you shouldn't live your life spending time on recording, conflicting every single incident you see.
He personally doesn't do it, fine. That's his choice.
Mikey intenially goes out looking for trouble to get views and make money from his channel.
Yes, Mikey has made the roads safer but he's also made them unsafe.
Some drivers will leave the incident thinking I should of handled that differently.
But I belive the majority of drivers that leave the scene will be thinking 'f*****g cyclist' and continue to drive more agressively and show more agression to cyclists in the future.
My expierence from confronting enraged drivers, they'll either have an epiphany and realise their mistake or they'll be increasingly more ignorant and aggressive.
Well, you've just outed yourself as being an idiot that can't understand that people are separate from their mode of transport.
I don't think I've got the patience to read the rest of your tripe
Another first time poster who hates cyclists, what a surprise. I read the rest of the tripe, you didn't miss much. Standout gem: "Yes, Mikey has made the roads safer but he's also made them unsafe."
He encouraged road rage, the driver could of snapped and driven over him. Think.
And if he didn't stop the driver, they would have driven round the blind corner on the wrong side of the road and straight into a pedestrian or legally-driving vehicle.
"We shouldn't stop people doing bad and/or dangerous things in case they are so psychopathic they lose their shit and do something else bad" is not, one feels, a recipe for a well ordered society.
I understand your point but there are enough viral videos of road rage making things far worse. Either incident could happen or nothing could happen at all. At the speed those drivers were going at, I think there is less risk of that than getting somebody enraged and stomping on the accelerator or letting their foot slip off the clutch.
Illiterate twat. Get back to the Daily Heil. You're fooling no-one.
Very angry there, really sorry if my point offended you.
"She encouraged rape by wearing a short skirt".
Some people would call this victim-blaming.
I call it dangerous nonsense that does nothing more than demonstrate and promote prejudice, whilst at the same time failing utterly to understand the motivations and causes of crime and law-breaking.
Back under your bridge, please.
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