Cycling on fast dual carriageways – Yes or No? A road.cc reader gives his view

I actually agree - I tend to keep off dcs tbh, neither would I advise others use them. a trip to billericay on teh A12 when I was youg and stupid(er) taught me that.

However from an enforcement point of view, sympathising with incompetent motorists to me is a complete no-no, and I don't get why the Police do it. The motorists who display incompetence and inability to plan ahead on DCs will exhibit the same behaviour in towns.

but the backtrack option would no doubt consist of following winding country roads with vehicles of similar types travelling at similar speeds to the A1,so how is it really then any safer for you ? it might feel safer to you, but statistically it comes out for all road users you are 2-3 times as likely to be killed in a crash on a single carriageway country road.

Awavey wrote:

Not sure why everyone is blaming anyone who is not a cyclist. Have you not seen the complete disregard cyclist have for anyone but themselves? All to busy ‘ training ‘ for what I have yet to find out..... oh sorry a blood sportive, where they can be more of a pain in the arse to everyone else. Rode a 24 on the South Coast a few years ago, car drivers very polite. Several dickheads riding a sportive had to be asked to stop bothering the riders, as they were TRYING to ‘race’ the riders on that TT. It was satisfying after 20 hours on a bike, still being able to drop them, difficult to pass them at times as they were riding 3 a breast.

but the backtrack option would no doubt consist of following winding country roads with vehicles of similar types travelling at similar speeds to the A1,so how is it really then any safer for you ? it might feel safer to you, but statistically it comes out for all road users you are 2-3 times as likely to be killed in a crash on a single carriageway country road.

Thank you! I was a bit taken aback- I was just talking about our findings- it could well be that it is the fault of the drivers not paying attention, but sudden braking does occur, causing risk of collisions. The ire though, seems to be directed at me. I volunteered for these close pass ops, they're not for the faint hearted, I did it to try to increase the safety of cyclists. I don't mind people disagreeing, but captain Badger or whatever his name is seems rather a rude chap.

Paul Donoghue wrote:

...but captain Badger or whatever his name is seems rather a rude chap.

Apparently he once bit a cat's penis, so consider yourself getting off lightly.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Apparently he once bit a cat's penis, so consider yourself getting off lightly.

Paul Donoghue wrote:

I volunteered for these close pass ops, they're not for the faint hearted

and that there is why these sort of operations are needed, so thank you for that.

But the police might not need to conduct such operations if they had a slicker way of dealing with uploaded video footage from the public.

I'm of the opinion that it's not the potential punshiment that changes behaviour, but the probability of getting caught.

The idiots need to be caught and the ignorant need to be taught.

If the processing of these videos could be done by civilians, issuing fines / courses for first offences and passing the more serious ones onto the police. Then it could largely be self-financing and not take up too much police time.

the ire isnt directed at you personally at all, its that time and time again the message we get from the public at large, is that its ok to excuse bad driving that puts cyclists,and other road users, who are doing nothing wrong, at risk, because its just one of those things.

and until we crack that nut and start educating people with the mindset that actually people driving vehicles have far more responsibility for their actions/inaction,and its backed up by a solid courts & prosecution setup,and drivers need to take more care around more vulnerable road users, and that  its not about  saying things like well you shouldnt be on that road, why cant you use that cycle path instead,therefore its your fault if you get close passed, we''ll just keep going round this loop on it.

I mean its interesting you say close pass ops arent for the faint hearted, how do you think regular cyclists feel about them ? most of us are experiencing "close pass ops" every time we go out for a ride and we certainly arent volunteering for it.

Paul Donoghue wrote:

but captain Badger or whatever his name is seems rather a rude chap.

Badgers are bluntly spoken, and are willing to tell people when they're wrong. 

Bear in mind that we conduct "operation close pass" every single time we go out on the road, without back up up the road, and without the ability to prosecute. 

Most of us drive, so we also understand how easy it is to drive safely around people on bikes, including on dual carriageways. 

Some forces have an excellent record of looking out for the vulnerable, throwing into relief the ones that don't.

And finally, hearing victim-blaming excuses for poor drivers is nothing new, and it is particularly galling to hear it from those who should know better.

I appreciate that you are new to commenting on this site, and it is useful to hear from you. But don't expect agreement - I don't, and am happy to concede a superior argument.

Paul Donoghue wrote:

captain Badger or whatever his name is seems rather a rude chap.

He's very opinionated and intransigent from the posts I've seen BTL so I wouldn't take much notice. It's good to hear from your viewpoint about this too. I rarely ride on a DCW myself, self preservation wins over asserting my rights in this case given the reality of our roads. And its not just those. My wife has recently bought an electric bike but the idea of commuting from near Frome to Bath up the A36 or even the slightly quieter Midford Road (road.cc staff know what i mean) scares her rigid. I hope a tipping point in this will be reached and cycling on main roads becomes a properly mainstream thing.

I can sort of see what you mean but aren't you really asking a slower moving vehicle to accommodate a driver of poor standard? Seems the answer is to improve driving skills. I amazed there are not more pile ups given the speeds and closeness to the vehicle in front that some drivers adopt. Far too many simply don't look far enough ahead and plan.

Please post again (despite your reception !) as you must have some good insights to share based on your experience.

First of all thank you for putting youself at risk on our behalf, I believe some police forces will not allow their officers to take part in close pass exercises due to the danger involved.

Secondly, I think the problem is drivers driving too close to the car in front. If a car can stop in the ditance the driver can see ro be clear then braking shouldn't be a problem.  May be more prosecutions for "tailgating" would help to deter drivers from doing it and make the roads safer for all of us.

Thirdly, a favour. Could you encourage your force to respond to videos of poor driving by prosecuting the offenders, may be on the second offence. This would need to be national so thet records of warnings could be kept.

Paul Donoghue wrote:

I have been a police response driver and a cyclist on police 'close pass' operations. I have spoken to many drivers who were stopped on our operations. ( For those who don't know, a cyclist - with radio and cameras radios waiting police motorcyclists when a car passes too close. They pull the driver over and he or she is given education including a short video on the dangers of driving too close to cyclists.) The problem on busy dual carriageways is that the car is approaching the cyclist at 50mph - the driver is unable to pull out and give space to the cyclist. He has to brake sharply in fast moving traffic, which can be (is) dangerous. I would not drive on a busy dual carriageway again - the driver either risks being rear ended by the car behind or driving too close to the cyclist.

So how exactly does this differ single lane dual carriageways, where the only option is to break - or a national speed limit single carriageway - or a national speed limit single track lane. Or for that matter a 20mph single carriageway, where cycling at 26mph isn't considered fast enough and the motorist has to overtake on a blind bend on the 'wrong' side of the road, creating a speed differential of 50 mph with anyone that might be approaching (assuming they aren't speeding too)?

That's what they do in the Netherlands, but it only works because their cycle paths are so good and well maintained.

Often they have done a better job than just putting a path in beside the main road. The best cycle paths are well away from the noisy polluting traffic and offer a more direct and quicker route than the road.

Triblokerich wrote:

Cyclists have a right to get from point A to point B and of the only choice is on a dual carriageway then they should be allowed to do so. However, in such a circumstance I would firm up the cycle path rule and state that if available the path MUST be used instead of a dual carriageway. Equally this law must not apply to cycle paths in general, many of which have been put in place as cynical box ticking exercises.

It depends on the quality of the path and where it starts and finishes. My experience is that there's typically only shared-use paths which means that you have to reduce your speed around other users and all the places where people/children/pets can join the path. I hate it when the paths kind of dump you out onto a side road so that you have to cross multiple lanes of traffic to continue your journey - it's probably safer to go with the flow of the traffic than having to keep crossing it to rejoin it again.

Old, populated with side turnings and a (say) 40 mph speed limit, or new, like the A34 Newbury by pass? 

Traffic volume is everything - too many cars is what makes it "dangerous": a lightly trafficked dual carriageway is arguably safer than anything else because there is ample room to pass. 

Eloquently put.

samuri wrote:

The correct answer is:

Drivers need to start accepting the roads aren't theirs alone. If you see a cyclist on the road, no matter what the speed limit, it's time to find the pedal in the middle and wait for a safe way to pass. This arrogance has to end and with it lives across all modes of transport will be saved. If you want to drive fast go on the motorway or wra your mondeo up on the track but the rest of the roads of for us all, suck it up.

One reason this situation exists is because drivers are permitted to believe they are the top-most road user instead of the one at the bottom. We need to remind drivers of the rules and their responsibilities at all places

I totally agree with these comments:

There were A roads long before cars came along. They allowed people to move efficiently around the country. People on foot, people on horseback and in carriages, and latterly on bicycles.

At some point the motorised vehicle has come along, at its drivers have been licensed to use these same roads safely in conjunction with the existing users.

But this has obviously led to far greater speed, increased traffic levels, and formalised multiple lanes.

None of that takes away from the fact that every user has a right to be there. 
And drivers should remember they are licensed to drive amongst other road users, not instead of them.

The more that drivers dominate, and other users evaporate, the more that vehicle dominance becomes de facto.

It is important that cyclists continue to use dual carriageways. And it is essential that drivers expect them to do so, and accord them safety.

The best thing authorities can do is to educate drivers, not shift everyone else out of the drivers' mighty way