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forum
Doping and what can be done
We have had this debate since the CIRC but lets be positive, it can be stopped.
First the UCI saying 24hr testing is positive (no one else does this).
Then the recognition of a problem and not hiding it away is positive.
However surely the best step are riders on Strava posting their stats after rides. Some put all the stats some do not but surely it helps if they all issued the stats and esp power so people can see if things are possible. People said Porte and Thomas were not possible yesterday in Paris-Nice, well lets see the power stats.
Why not put all the stats on Strava, some do why not all ?
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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A look at the list of currently sanctioned athletes on the UK Anti Doping website is interesting. There are 49 British athletes currently sanctioned for PEDs (or recreational drugs). Three of them are cyclists, 27 are rugby players.
Yes, cycling has a problem, but at least we're facing up to it, dealing with it (mostly), and trying to eradicate it. Rugby, athletics and boxing are a good ten years behind us and show no desire to put their own houses in order.
Ultimately, though, professional sport will always be riddled with cheating.
Spot on! Just as Armstrong is the fall-guy for cycling, cycling is the fall-guy for the whole of sport! People need to get real - at the pinnacle of professional sport, competitors will always look for ways to gain an edge! That's the way it always has been and always will be!
Paul Kimmage has had a real go at Rugby in Ireland recently and the response from the authorities ? Silence. Nothing from the press either, no investigations nothing. Same goes with football, they create too much money and too many vested interests.
Athletics are like us but we know a German TV programme exposed athletics in Russia and said there was named British athlete, nothing from the press.
Then we saw pictures of Mo Farah with known dopers, little said, Kenya and Jamaica rife with doping, little said.
Cycling has it's problems but it is an easy sport for the press to have a go at, they don;t make money from it ....
Education for the hopeful; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
Starting from 1886, 129 years ago... Doping is more a part of cycling than geared bicycles, helmets, lycra, carbon fibre, technical fabrics and so on...
Pro cycling is like sausages; I like sausages, but I don't want to know how they're made.
In a nutshell!
As fans, do we want racing at the speeds we currently see? Do we want to enjoy the thrill of the Classics? Do we want grand tours with iconic mountain stages, day after day? Do we want riders, who take nasty spills, to have the balls to jump back on the bike (Johnny Hoogerland, anyone)? Do we want to see the bravery, pain, guts, determination, and super-human efforts?
That's the dilemma!
I'm not sure about what you are saying here. The drama of human endeavour put against chance is exciting whether you throw drugs in there or not. Actually, what happens with drugs is that it makes things more predictable. People use them to take the vagueries of chance out of the process so it is more likely they will win. Competition is naturally dramatic with or without drugs. The humanity of it all makes it interesting and you are less human if you are on drugs.
What I'm saying is:
Drugs in cycling will never be eradicated by testing (and certainly never by posting strava stats!). Riders want to be the best they can be, and will do anything to get there (as long as they can justify it within their own moral definitions and / or have an assurance of not getting caught). That is human nature. That is the way it has always been in cycling.
So, we are at a stage now in cycling, where the races and the performances we love as fans, have developed through a long era of doping (both within and against the rules). That is where we're at. The UCI know it, the teams know it, the sponsors know it, the fans know it (there are a few deluded ones, granted).
To eradicate that completely will mean starting again - a clean slate - new races (the Tour de France couldn't continue as it is and expect nobody to dope to win a mountain-top finish! Likewise you can't expect a rider to be competitive through the whole classics season on bread and water, and then go on to ride the TdF too!). But, the fans would walk away in their droves, the sponsors would withdraw as TV coverage dwindles, the riders would earn less, and the bike industry would collapse! That can not happen! So what is the answer? That's the dilemma!
Wat ?
So are you saying that Froome was doping in 2013 at the Tour ?
I don't want to start again - I love the history of cycling - just explaining why you can't eradicate doping from the sport! You can try, but you'll fail.
Regarding Froome - I'm sure we've been down that path before haven't we?
I think the public, or competitors, will never get a full picture, for whatever reason.
Cookson does certainly seem to be starting to shake things up a little, and that's great. The sport is instantly much more credible. But there's only so much the UCI can do. Not being complicit in it is a great start, but it's only a small thing.
you think those pro's going on really do that ?
YEs there always will be cheaters and testers will always be behind but can anyone now claim the UCI are actively as in the past are covering up/ignoring it ?
'the systems are now so damn good.'
They are. But, as ever, the dopers are way ahead. It will always be so. It's a lovely picture you paint, but it is superbly naive.
Ref: Strava. It's no use for anything other than for amateur willy-waving. Anyone who wants to can modify their Strava data at any time. Getting round drug tests is straightforward yet involves quite a bit of work. Putting edited data online is so much more simple.
No Trolling.
OK as to the data, I doubt seeing what someone does will make any real difference in reality to any pro as I bet most follow the same basic training anyway. during races, is where the data can be presented to us and it is good to see what they do.
As to doping, no one can pretend it will ever ben dope free, no sport will ever be, but cycling has done far more than any other sport to deal with it. So could it be so many get caught simply because the systems are now so damn good.
Compare and contrast to Jamaica ...
Not sure if trolling...
So people can do their best armchair commentating and create wild accusations that could just be caused by a strong tailwind increasing vam.... and reduced HR
Also people don't put all their data on Strava to keep their data of winter training secret from other teams....if you saw your opponents training, just copy them and have similiar form and fitness, doesn't seem fair does it.
If you suggest its only just race data, the rider could dope through the whole winter and then come clean through summer, whilst still gaining some illegal benefit with the differences being smaller so as to be all but invisible, yet decisive.
I personally think that there will always be some doping as long as money is involved, however the UCI needs to minimise the doping and have increased sanctions if caught, and yes the CIRC report is imo a good thing to recognise, officially, what happened.
Dont get me wrong I'd love for here to be no doping but I find this slightly unrealistic.
Actually a tailwind would show they are not putting in unfeasible amounts of power.
But Strava is a blunt tool for this and I don't think it is fair for armchair critics to try to judge, even though, from my comfy seat I think they are mostly doping. When a system is in place which provides adequate controls then we will know the authenticity of the performances.
I think the problem for all sports is that the thirst to be better, bigger, faster etc. has produced super-human performances fuelled by drugs. But if we were to return to normal you would find amateur and pros not miles apart. As a species, humans have not developed the level of natural selection which gives rise to dramatically different performance.