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forum
Off to court.......any tips?
Hi all - tired old rider / first time poster.
Back in the spring I was a few miles from home after about 75 miles in the saddle when a friendly guy in a large 4x4 thought it'd be HILARIOUS to miss me by about 6 inches while driving at warp speed on an otherwise completely empty road. Like a tw&t (albeit a fairly shaken up one) I decided to let my middle finger do the talking and then next thing I knew he was out the car, rugby tackling me off the bike, and saying some stuff that, if I was more easily offended, would probably have wounded my inner child.
Anyhow, him, me and the CPS are heading off to court next month so that three magistrates can decide what should happen to him. The charge is assualt, and luckily I have two independent witnesses, or I strongly suspect that this wouldn't have raised much of an eyebrow with the police. I've fessed up to the 'fingering', so to speak Just wondering if anyone else has had any experience of this kind of thing, and can give me an idea of what to expect on the day?
Cheers, and merry Christmas.
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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48 comments
Cancelled, or postponed? If cancelled, have they say why - have the CPS dropped the case? Either way, 7 minutes notice is shocking.
I had a bit of contact with the courts system throughout a messy divorce. Delays for various reasons including lack of preparation are common and things drag out. Saying that, on the whole I thought the judges did a professional and reasonable job in circumstances which can be difficult.
Good luck.
Suit on, tie on, shoes cleaned, signed in, metal detector cleared, witnesses present, statement memorised, mental preparations complete......trial cancelled at 7 minutes notice. Seven. The excuse......'We meant to tell you yesterday but we forgot to send the email'. The British legal system is rightly the envy of the world......
Bizarrely, half a world away in NZ a similar thing happened to me on New Years eve. My mate was just about crushed by a rented 4 x 4, and then the pillock tried to run me off the road. My reaction was to smack the bonnet, so he pulled over and some verbals ensued. He then pushed me off my bike, wrecking the saddle and bar tape. Fortunately for me, there were security across the road as this was inner city and there was an event being set up. They called the cops and provided statements. I am waiting to hear if he will be prosecuted, but I am going to sue him as a civil matter for the damage.
I had a previous encounter with another motorist who turned left in front of me into an entrance, damaging my BB. A local rider who's a solicitor wrote a nice letter for me and he paid for the repair.
I recently did a stint on jury duty and noticed that the defence lawyer will try to discredit all of your info. Like others have said, stay calm, stick to your description; your response was such that many others would have done, given he drove past you in a reckless manner when there was no need.
Would he have done the same if it was a horse and rider, a tractor or a pedestrian?
Best outcome, hes got previous for violence, is on probation, gets an extended stay in the clink with a consecutive driving ban for a million years
When you in court? Community service hours at the minimum hopefully.
Defensive driver training and sweeping glass out of cycle lanes
Video was shown in court of the moment I was punched in the head. There was no conviction for assault. Be prepared to be astonished. Hopefully it won't be the case, but be prepared.
Holy sh*t!!! By what standard is that not assault? And if not, what is it??
Provocation isn't a defence to any charge other than murder (and even that has now been replaced with the defence of 'loss of control).
So the finger, however bad, however naughty, requires no explanation. Running a defence of 'he put his finger up at me' is going to get the clerk (if there are 3 mags) or the District Judge explaining that there is no such defence and would he like to re-consider his plea.
I think the general principle is around proportionality. Strictly speaking, you can commit common assualt without actually physically coming into contact with the person (i.e. with words or gestures), so a driver then pulling an emergency stop on a fast A-road and starting a physical altercation (which includes bringing down a cyclist at speed) which spills onto the opposing carriageway, doesn't feel proportionate. In any case, the witness will state that the driver started it with a punishment pass, and ended it by screaming that I shouldn't have been on the road where there was a (cracked, glass-strewn) cycle path running parallel. If he isn't convicted I'll be absolutely astonished.
Proportionality as in self defence?
Cheers - much appreciated. I have a weird feeling that the guy might roll over 2 minutes before the start time and the whole thing will become my life's version of the Jack Ruby murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
A few years ago I was a witness in a commercial case (in front of a judge) through work. We were trained in how to answer in court (not on what to say, of course, but how to behave). All the advice above is sound, and is pretty much what we were told, especially about taking time and answering clearly. Two other points made to us were:
In the end the judge found for us on the majority of points, but the complainant had no money and so we were still out of pocket. The training was useful though and helped us all to be confident.
Good luck with it
Sorry to hear about your wife mate - I hope that she was OK and that the defendant had to cough up for repairs and compensation.
I can only assume that my guy has been able to access legal aid and is playing a 'heads I win, tails you lose' game. If he's not on the hook for the cost of his representation then he may as well plead not guilty and wait for the process to play out. If he loses then he can (and almost certainly will) play the poverty card and claim to have no means to pay for the damage to my bike. And me.
Awesome!
If this happens, and you feel the defendant is unrepentant, you can then sue him, at the modest cost of £25, in the County Court for your damages. He may still avoid payment but it will cause havoc with his credit score and he will likely be turned down for loans, mortgages, overdrafts and stuff.
Think charges have increased, now £80 fee for a claim up to £1500, rising thereafter. But definitely worthwhile, can screw up a credit file for up to 7 years after the claim has been settled, so if you’re offered a paltry amount that will take years then the CCJ remains for that time as well.
P.s. because the consequences can be so severe, just the threat is frequently sufficient.
Not necessarily.
There are people who if they fear they will get a driving ban will pay for their own defence and others who will defend themselves. The latter group piss the bench off as it makes trials take longer as they have to have points of law explained to them.
It's an interesting one actually - the near miss doesn't appear to be being prosecuted, only the assault. What's weird is that the near miss was the 'causal factor' (if we're going to get all scientifiic about it) without which none of this would have happened. So it'll be interesting to see if any punishment relates to the car or not.
Benborp pretty much covered it all. I'd say two extra things.
Firstly your statement was probably written for you by a police officer - know what it says, but let the prosecutor know before the trial starts if any parts are inaccurate or unclear. During the trial, don't be afraid to put it in your own words.
secondly, speak slowly and clearly. It is literally not possible to be too slow. But witnesses (both nervous and confident ones) almost always talk too quickly. It's part of the prosecutor's job to control your pace, but don't rely on that.
If there are independent witnesses, I'm rather surprised that the chump hasn't pleaded. Even if the Magistrates turn out to be bike-hating 4x4 drivers they'll still struggle to acquit when a driver stops his vehicle, gets out and uses violence towards another road user. I suspect that he'll need a post-Xmas miracle.
Cheers
The officer who interviewed the suspect told me that the guy is (a) maintaining that I made a positive choice to ride into him when all he wanted to do was talk to me, despite the fact that by the time he tackled me he'd we were both on the far side of the opposing carriageway, due to my attempt to get away, and (b) a fanatical anti-cycling vigilante who has made it clear that he wants his day in court so that he can give voice to his feelings towards cyclists. He was offered the chance to admit what he'd done and pay for the damage in exchange for a caution, but he declined. Both witesses are independent and extremely credible, and I'm a dull middle-aged company director with two kids and no previous. It's a really odd situation and I'm quietly hoping that he changes his plea in the meantime - although there's a part of me that is morbidly curious as to how he's going to explain his actions in a way that doesn't make him seem like a complete headcase.
Perhaps a motorist might, but is any cyclist likely to, risking injury and a broken bike?
Good luck with it all (and: you *must* please come back and let us know how it goes, after the dust settles).
With any luck it'll be hilariously entertaining.
My wife was knocked off her bike in Leeds by an idiot coming out of a side road, who got out of her car with the usual SMIDSY, and then drove off and left my wife in the road after she got a mouthful ('well if that's how you're going to react, I'm going').
Fortunately a woman in the car behind saw it all and came to the magistrates.
The driver seemed to be doing anything to avoid just accepting points on her license, and that included defending herself; she'd watched too much Ironside or something, and it was just catastrophic. She seemed to think that by ranting she would get her way, expecting the court to share her dodgy worldview, where she gets away with driving into cyclists, and the only piece of 'evidence' she had were photos of the road to support the comical suggestion that my wife could have avoided the collision by jumping up the kerb*. Beyond that her defence seemed to be based on pointing out that the witness was 'young' and so just wanted to pick on the driver (the witness and my wife were about thirty and the driver was in her fifties), and then suggested they knew each other and it might be an insurance scam. It was just awful, but really funny to see someone stupidly wrong unravel in slo-mo.
Good luck: I hope you witness something similar.
* Driver: you could have got off the road when you were aware I was about to hit you.
Wife: where to?
Driver: the pavement.
Wife: I was only aware you were hitting me when you hit me, which happened when you'd come into the main road, past the pavement. How could I jump up the kerb from there?
Driver: OK, what about the kerb on the other side? (meaning across the other side of a busy A road in Leeds during morning rush hour).
Wife: you mean jump sideways across traffic as your car is hitting me? My bike isn't the Tardis.
Etc. Almost an hour of weird ideas and avoiding questions. I reckon the magistrates were as close to losing their shit as magistrates can get.
Unfortunately we couldn't hang around for the sentencing session, but she got enough points (6, IIRC) to take her to 12 and lose her license, hence the desperation.
He is on trial for assault, not you for the finger. call everyone sir (or female equivalent) keep answers short and simple. Do NOT ARGUE with anyone, and have a stock answer for how you will deal with accusations of lying eg with respect that is not how i remember it. Stand up when asked to, sit down when told to. do not use jargon, eg primary, punishment pass etc you will sound silly and no-one will know what on earth you are talking about (arguably folk using these terms have no idea what they mean either) Thoroughly likely YOU are only there for the CPS to be able to prosecute and highly likely you won't be asked anything, or even stand up. dress for an interview.
it will likely last minutes, if it is not passed to the crown court, which is likely to happen if the accused denies the charge.
Amazing how many clients want their day in court only to find it a thoroughly deflating experience, and not their own spectacular real life version of 12 angry men.
Thanks - this feels like pretty solid advice, although at some point I will be shoe-horning in the phrase "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH."
It may not necessarily steer the proceedings in the direction I want, but it's sure to make the day memorable.
Know all the statements well. In particular, know yours inside out.
If you are not familiar with court and have opportunity, go and see one before hand. Check listings to see if something similar with a victim is available to sit in on.
Answer the questions, make statements of fact and don't get in to an exchange or try to be clever. However, be prepared to stand your ground (why knowing your statement inside out is essential).
Finally, don't expect a great experience. You will be challenged and it will be direct and brief. Be prepared for it to feel short and sharp without you giving full vent to your feelings. Types of discussion in court is different to types of discussion outside of it.
Hope it goes according to expectations.
Cheers - this sounds like good advice to me.
I will ensure that the finger has been given a powerful sedative before it is escorted, sleeping, into the courtroom. I decided that full disclosure on my witness statement was probably the best policy, so my finger's transgressions are already a matter of record. I am hoping against hope that the defendant will approach the proceedings with the same degree of transparency. Although I also hope that I will one day have the guitar-playing skills of Eddie Van Halen.
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