23 or 25mm Clinchers to race and train? Which clinchers to choose?

Probably all in the mind but tyres are the same. Gave up with latex tubes fed up puncturing, could have been just a bad run but got fed up forking out out for new tubes

I swapped my 23mm schwalbe ones last summer for 25's, definately more comfortable on the 25's. However, I couldn't get used to how sluggish they felt on pick up and on climbs, sure they do have lower rolling resistance when up to speed, but I hated the sluggishness compared to 23's, have now swapped back and enjoy the responsiveness of 23's

If I were ever to do the type of riding where I could appreciate the benefits of aero carbon wheels it would be nice. They are sooo aesthetically appealing.

I found the last bit of the article the interesting though. I've heard so many different people and reviewers say that wider rims and wider tires = lower air pressure. So with a 23 mm rim, your 23 mm tire actually balloons out to 25 or even 27 mm but then instead of 100 psi or whatever you normally run at (yes, yes, long-standing debate) they drop down to 70 or 80 psi which makes for a cushier ride but takes away some of the rolling resistance benefit from the wider tire-road interface which no one really mentions.

Now if I could just get all the science to convince the spouse to let me upgrade my wheelset ....

Comparisons of pro's riding tubular 23s and 25s are hard to quantify when looking at clinchers - a tubular 23 is a tubular 23, it gets glued on, inflated and that's that. When you look at a clincher, things like air volume, tyre width etc become dependant on your rim width, base tape thickness, double layered base tape, tyre bed profile etc. so one persons experience on a 25 clincher might be very different to another's.

Just get the ones you want to try, and try them. If you like them, buy more.

Interesting link.

The pro's might be on 25's, but then they've got the latest super wide rims which are designed to work with wide tyres (ie no bulge over the rim, preserving the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels)

I can't afford to update my summer 'aero' tubulars, which are the traditional narrow v shape, so I stick with narrower tyres as per the manufacturer recommendations.

Possibly it wouldn't make much difference anyway, but then that would defeat the object of buying deep, light carbon wheels in the first place..!

Sorry for resurrecting this thread again but just read an article on 23 vs 25 based on the pro's perspective that people might find interesting. And there's some tire pressure thrown in there at the end just for some spice.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/25-vs-23?cmp_id=EM_CC_1067218_S1...

Would be interested to find out what the OP ended going with.

All this talk of 10psi here or there. I have two track-pumps. A Bontrager and an SKS. They give different readings, by just over 10psi. I'd say any pressure quoted here should be taken as a guide only, they go out a bit harder, then a bit softer and see what feels right. You'll know when it's right. And your bum will thank you.

Trust me they will take higher pressures. I'm a lot heavier than 64kg and have managed to compress a race tyre to the rim hitting a bump. Also my road bike is not my everyday, it's a weekend and sportive special. 140psi is an absolute maximum on dry, smooth roads - as you can guess you don't find them in UK. UK roads max 130psi for 23C, 100-110psi for 25C.

Tyre pressure. Since changing to Continental GP4000 25C have reduced tyre pressure by 25 to 30psi depending on conditions.

25's will fit in my Planet X ProCarbon, but you have to inflate them once they are in the frame & you can't fit guards then (not even CrudRacers), so I'm limited to 23's for the winter. But as I don't have wide rims, that isn't bothering me too much.

It's an old topic, but too fun to not comment, and someone else did post today...

Yes, a one-wheel solution is inherently a compromise, but in the less elite race categories, the gap between riders will be more significant than differences in their equipment. You can worry about equipment way too much. I hope that the original poster got his 25s.

When you do get a set of race wheels, you can stop worrying about making your training wheels "fast." Horses for courses. Wheels that don't get raced can be heavier, more durable, and more comfortable.

There is a category of rider who wants fast training wheels to "win" training rides or century rides. Apart from triathletes, they must be the people buying carbon clinchers. A coach and a power meter might make them faster, but who am I to say that their form of recreation isn't valid?

get some 30s. Challenge are making some nice ones

There was a very interesting article by Richard Hallett on this very subject. I think it was in last week's Cycling Weekly, but it might have been the week before.

As I recall it, he comes down in favour of 25s on the grounds of lower rolling resistance and greater comfort than 23s.

Moved from Continental GP4000 23c to Continental GP4000 25c last year.

The only difference I've noticed is the increased comfort.

In terms of volume 25mm tyres are around 18% larger and therefore can be run at around 20PSI less. The difference is certainly NOT marginal.

Gains on rolling resistance with 25mm tyres are certainly greater than 1W when tested on real roads, not steel drums. The worse the road surface, the more significant gains (largely thanks to lower pressure not width per se).

for racing a narrower tyre is likely to be better than a 25. It depends on the wheel, but at racing speeds you will lose more speed through drag (maybe 5 watts) then you will save through lower rolling resistence (< 1 watt)

These are small differences, that you would never notice in training where comfort is more important, but there is no way in hell I would use a 25 for a TT.

700c wrote:

Conventional wisdom is 23 for racing,.I understand. (I don't race), but comfort is not as much of a factor, they are a little lighter, plus unless you don't get the more aero limitations on conventional width rims (bulge of tire over and above brake track width)

Marginal gains and all that...

But this is just theory, and if you prefer to be comfortable you might find wider is more beneficial than narrow tires

No-one wins or loses because of 2mm of tyre width or 20 grammes difference in weight. Those gains are at the thinnest end of marginal. But a 25mm tyre does give you a greater volume of air so a little more comfort, though IME it's not 'night and day'.

Pressure can make quite a difference, mainly because too hard a tyre will be bouncing you and your bike around instead of deforming and absorbing surface irregularities. I'm 62 kg and for racing I put 100 psi in my Ultremos for smooth courses, 90 psi on the rougher ones. Was happy with ~80 psi in the 25mm Vittoria Rubino Pro 2s I had. I began racing club TTs on 28mm Bontrager Hardcase tyres (talk about making it harder!) and one night I forgot to check the rear - it was just 40 psi yet it didn't seem to make much difference!

If you were another 10 kg heavier I'd add 5 psi to those numbers but every rider should establish their preferred pressures.

More tyre suggestions - http://road.cc/content/forum/88042-help-tyre-choice

Double check frame clearance is enough for 28's first! Also some 25's have wider profile than others (Vittoria open corsa as mentioned in 25c appears a very wide and round profile,.it will only just fit in one of the bikes I've put them on..

Conventional wisdom is 23 for racing,.I understand. (I don't race), but comfort is not as much of a factor, they are a little lighter, plus unless you don't get the more aero limitations on conventional width rims (bulge of tire over and above brake track width)

Marginal gains and all that...

But this is just theory, and if you prefer to be comfortable you might find wider is more beneficial than narrow tires

If you want one tyre for both then open tubs are not the best option - you might be lucky but they would be best used as a racing tyre, with latex tubes.

Vittoria Corsa or Veloflex, with lovely gumwall sides.

For 25mm tyres which are good as training and racing I like Vredestein Fortezza. Continental do their GP 4000s in 25mm but I've never really been impressed with Conti.