Lotto-Soudal pro Adam Hansen says Specialized is trying to force disc brakes on peloton

D-Squared wrote:

I've been riding with mechanical disks on my commuter for over 15 years ( so I'm not exactly a bike marketers dream). If I'm mixing it with cars on the road I definitely want the stopping power.

And I've been riding with rim brakes on my commuter without any problems

I have 2 sets of hydro discs. The XT ones on my MTB are fantastic and I wouldn't ride off-road without them, the Hornet ones on my hybrid less so, but still perfect on that bike, as it's the one I use with my daughter's bike seat.

Equally, I have 2 sets of rim brakes on my road bikes (older set of 105 and Chorus - both on alu), which have been used on some pretty big hills (Alps and Pyrenees, including some pretty wet descents) and at no point on either bike have I felt I needed more braking power - as several other people have pointed out on this forum, you'll probably run out of tyre grip before you run out of braking.

Compare that to the 2 classic bikes I have with chrome rims and you'll never complain about modern rim brakes again!

I know when I'm riding disc brakes, as you can hear them occasionally "singing" riding along, because the pads don't really retract that far from the rotor and an bit of grit in there/not quite perfectly flat disk can catch, so there's definitely lost energy - my rim brakes, in comparison, are silent, as there's more clearance, so no lost energy.

There's an argument that disc brakes are higher/harder maintenance, but I don't really buy that from my experience. You do need to keep an eye on spoke tensions in disc wheels - in the early days of mountain bike discs, there were a number of folded wheels due to the leverage of the rim when the hub is stopped.

However, I am approaching the need to replace a set of rims for the first time ever due to brake wear - previously, I've only had to replace them due to breaking the rims before they wore out.

For me, the only reasons for using disc brakes on a road bike is that rotors are a lot cheaper/easier to replace when they wear out, or you have carbon rims with notoriously bad braking. Anything else is really personal preference.

Alb wrote:

Maybe, just maybe he's actually spent a meaningful amount of time riding them and changed his opinion unlike the rest of the whinging dinosaurs like Hansen. 

The same 'dinosaur' who, among other things, has developed & maintains a logistics software package used by several WT teams and makes his own racing shoes? He should spend more time on his sofa instead of riding his bike for a pro team as he obviously knows nothing about those races in which he participates all year.

Alb wrote:

Aussie rider claims “Tom Boonen was against disc brakes last year, now he’s retiring this year and loves them”

 

Maybe, just maybe he's actually spent a meaningful amount of time riding them and changed his opinion unlike the rest of the whinging dinosaurs like Hansen. 

Adam Hansen the whingeing dinosaur who has ridden and raced more miles on his bike than you ever will ?

risoto wrote:

My next bike, you guessed it, will be without disc brakes!

whereas I'll never buy another bike without them. each to their own! 

: )

risoto wrote:

Of course it's about money - "follow the money" - never fails. I have one bike with Avid BB7.  As a casual rider I see no benefits:

1. They are always noisy - dry and wet

2. Need constant adjustment - loosen caliper bolts, pull the brake, tighten bolts. After every wash or whenever the wheel has been off.  And, be extremely careful not to get soap, detergents or oil on the pads.

3. I still have no idea how to replace the pads- manual is a mess, youtube no help, shopping for pads - two or three different products: which one to buy???

4. A racer might benefit from disc brakes - they react quickly in the wet so a good thing going down a mountain. I never ride mountains so I don't need that benefit. To be honest - I've never had a problem braking fast enough with caliper brakes.

5. It is extremely fast, cheap and easy to replace normal brake pads - one standard fits all. Installation and adjustment takes seconds, not several minutes.

6. Compatibility with other bike parts like hubs, wheels etc.  is a mess as others posted.

7. They are more expensive and add weight.

8. You crash and bend the rotor - expensive, complicated to replace and can you ride home with a bended rotor?

My next bike, you guessed it, will be without disc brakes!

1. Huh? My road disc brakes make the same sound as my rim brakes... stuff rubbing on metal. Try cleaning yours properly.

2. Constant adjustment? No more than rim brakes. Even easier still with hydraulic brakes. A child could do it.

3. No idea how to replace disc brake pads? Refer to my prior statement about age requirements.

4. Never had a problem with caliper brakes? You mustn't go very fast, ride in the rain or near other riders and cars.

5. One standard fits all? There's no 'standard' bottom bracket type, chain type, gearing indexing method, headset type, wheel width or diameter etc etc, yet you seem happy to accept that.

6. Rim brakes are compatible with rim brake hubs and ONLY rim brake rims. Disc brakes are compatible with disc brake hubs and ANY RIM type. Seems like an advantage not a disadvantage

7. Expensive? If you can't afford the latest technology, get a better job. Heavier? If you're too weak to be able to cope with the few extra grams, that must be why you ride so slowly.

8. Bend the rotor? A crash big enough to bend a rotor is big enough to destroy the whole wheel... and since when haven't bent wheels affected rim braking.

Good to hear you're happy to stay with rim brakes. Have you made the leap from 8 to 9 speed yet? Wait until you try a carbon frame instead of steel! And pneumatic tyres.... WOW!

As for 'complicated' to replace... your idea of complicated differs greatly from mine.

sunnyape wrote:

risoto wrote:

Of course it's about money - "follow the money" - never fails. I have one bike with Avid BB7.  As a casual rider I see no benefits:

1. They are always noisy - dry and wet

2. Need constant adjustment - loosen caliper bolts, pull the brake, tighten bolts. After every wash or whenever the wheel has been off.  And, be extremely careful not to get soap, detergents or oil on the pads.

3. I still have no idea how to replace the pads- manual is a mess, youtube no help, shopping for pads - two or three different products: which one to buy???

4. A racer might benefit from disc brakes - they react quickly in the wet so a good thing going down a mountain. I never ride mountains so I don't need that benefit. To be honest - I've never had a problem braking fast enough with caliper brakes.

5. It is extremely fast, cheap and easy to replace normal brake pads - one standard fits all. Installation and adjustment takes seconds, not several minutes.

6. Compatibility with other bike parts like hubs, wheels etc.  is a mess as others posted.

7. They are more expensive and add weight.

8. You crash and bend the rotor - expensive, complicated to replace and can you ride home with a bended rotor?

My next bike, you guessed it, will be without disc brakes!

1. Huh? My road disc brakes make the same sound as my rim brakes... stuff rubbing on metal. Try cleaning yours properly.

2. Constant adjustment? No more than rim brakes. Even easier still with hydraulic brakes. A child could do it.

3. No idea how to replace disc brake pads? Refer to my prior statement about age requirements.

4. Never had a problem with caliper brakes? You mustn't go very fast, ride in the rain or near other riders and cars.

5. One standard fits all? There's no 'standard' bottom bracket type, chain type, gearing indexing method, headset type, wheel width or diameter etc etc, yet you seem happy to accept that.

6. Rim brakes are compatible with rim brake hubs and ONLY rim brake rims. Disc brakes are compatible with disc brake hubs and ANY RIM type. Seems like an advantage not a disadvantage

7. Expensive? If you can't afford the latest technology, get a better job. Heavier? If you're too weak to be able to cope with the few extra grams, that must be why you ride so slowly.

8. Bend the rotor? A crash big enough to bend a rotor is big enough to destroy the whole wheel... and since when haven't bent wheels affected rim braking.

Good to hear you're happy to stay with rim brakes. Have you made the leap from 8 to 9 speed yet? Wait until you try a carbon frame instead of steel! And pneumatic tyres.... WOW!

As for 'complicated' to replace... your idea of complicated differs greatly from mine.

 

No need to be a complete dick in your reply

risoto wrote:

Of course it's about money - "follow the money" - never fails. I have one bike with Avid BB7.  As a casual rider I see no benefits:

1. They are always noisy - dry and wet

2. Need constant adjustment - loosen caliper bolts, pull the brake, tighten bolts. After every wash or whenever the wheel has been off.  And, be extremely careful not to get soap, detergents or oil on the pads.

3. I still have no idea how to replace the pads- manual is a mess, youtube no help, shopping for pads - two or three different products: which one to buy???

4. A racer might benefit from disc brakes - they react quickly in the wet so a good thing going down a mountain. I never ride mountains so I don't need that benefit. To be honest - I've never had a problem braking fast enough with caliper brakes.

5. It is extremely fast, cheap and easy to replace normal brake pads - one standard fits all. Installation and adjustment takes seconds, not several minutes.

6. Compatibility with other bike parts like hubs, wheels etc.  is a mess as others posted.

7. They are more expensive and add weight.

8. You crash and bend the rotor - expensive, complicated to replace and can you ride home with a bended rotor?

My next bike, you guessed it, will be without disc brakes!

I've been using BB7s since 2012 and really have experienced very few of these issues. The only real issue I had was need to adjust the caliper if swapping wheels. Maybe I've realised how to handle the pads and rotor early so avoided lots of these problems. But I basically just avoid touching the rotors with anything other than a clean cloth.

I also seem to be able to clean my bike and degrease the drivechain without covering my pads in grease. I don't generally need to even touch the pads but if they have got particularly filthy then I just remove them and scrub them together with plenty of washing up liquid and water. Dry them off and they are just like new again. They are no harder work than rim pads.

There are videos about changing the pads. It's easy. New ones are cheap and easy to find too.

I've done about 1000 miles with my BB7s since I used them for a rebuild project (I did a few thousand on them before this) and I've not touched them at all in that time. The braking is great (I really do stress you should use high quality compressionless housing) and they only briefly make an initial squeak under braking in the wet before the rotor clears and they are silent again. It sounds like you have contaminated the pad (or it's so badly worn you have metal-metal contact).

I will agree these models add weight but more expensive than what? They are similar to high quality rim calipers. 

In a crash you would be more likely to buckle a wheel than bend a rotor. The rotor wouldn't typically hit anything as other parts of the bike hit the road first. They are also inexpensive and easy to replace.

I don't mean to dismiss your experience so much but I'm struggling to see how you had so many problems.

risoto wrote:

Of course it's about money - "follow the money" - never fails. I have one bike with Avid BB7.  As a casual rider I see no benefits:

1. They are always noisy - dry and wet

2. Need constant adjustment - loosen caliper bolts, pull the brake, tighten bolts. After every wash or whenever the wheel has been off.  And, be extremely careful not to get soap, detergents or oil on the pads.

3. I still have no idea how to replace the pads- manual is a mess, youtube no help, shopping for pads - two or three different products: which one to buy???

4. A racer might benefit from disc brakes - they react quickly in the wet so a good thing going down a mountain. I never ride mountains so I don't need that benefit. To be honest - I've never had a problem braking fast enough with caliper brakes.

5. It is extremely fast, cheap and easy to replace normal brake pads - one standard fits all. Installation and adjustment takes seconds, not several minutes.

6. Compatibility with other bike parts like hubs, wheels etc.  is a mess as others posted.

7. They are more expensive and add weight.

8. You crash and bend the rotor - expensive, complicated to replace and can you ride home with a bended rotor?

My next bike, you guessed it, will be without disc brakes!

TRP Spyres, 2014.

1. There's some noise, yes, but nowhere near as frequent as you may think. Nor as loud or as annoying. Motorcycle brakes squeal a lot louder - and they do so consistently.

2. The only real adjustment I do is to account for pad wear, but nothing I wasn't already doing on my V-braked folding bike (and adjusting a V-brake is actually harder and more finicky). With hydraulic disc brakes, you don't even need to do that; they auto-adjust for pad wear. Once in a blue moon, I recenter the caliper over the rotor. I dismount and remount my front wheel on a daily basis, too. Here, I can show you how it's done on a Spyre caliper

https://accidentalrandonneur.wordpress.com/2016/02/05/adjusting-a-trp-sp...

3. I have no way of helping you, but I have something for fellow Spyre owners. It's one of my most popular posts ever. 

https://accidentalrandonneur.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/replacing-pads-on-...

4. Modulation means a Spyre caliper can react pretty quickly without lockup.

5. TRP uses pretty much the same Shimano pad shape for all its disc brake calipers for road use. Whether you use a Spyre, HY/RD or Hylex, you need only one pad shape.

6. My disc brake bike uses mountain bike QR hubs. No compatibility problems. It's not as if people have stopped making them. They're just not hogging the headlines. I don't even get rotor rubbing on my "weak-arse" QR skewers - the bike is plenty stiff enough.

7. Cheaper to replace a rotor than a wheelset once the braking track is gone. One of the only reasons why I'm considering a replacement wheelset is hub seals gone bad.

8. I've crashed on a few occasions. Rotor hasn't got bent, not even once. Even if you do bend a rotor, you can generally wrestle it back straight with a crescent wrench.

Never buying another bike with rim brakes.

trohos wrote:

 Who says that a wet rotor is better? Yet, who says that a hot rotor is better? Also, if the system isn't bleeding right?

For the rim wear,

rotor wear ( every company has individual system) + disc brake pads wear (every company has individual system) + bleeding + service. 

true but a rotor costs £25, while a pair of carbon wheels costs £600+ I know which ones of these I would rather consider to be a consumable part.

wycombewheeler wrote:

trohos wrote:

 Who says that a wet rotor is better? Yet, who says that a hot rotor is better? Also, if the system isn't bleeding right?

For the rim wear,

rotor wear ( every company has individual system) + disc brake pads wear (every company has individual system) + bleeding + service. 

true but a rotor costs £25, while a pair of carbon wheels costs £600+ I know which ones of these I would rather consider to be a consumable part.

Believe me, if you have carbon wheels some carbon rotors costs +++

wycombewheeler wrote:

true but a rotor costs £25, while a pair of carbon wheels costs £600+ I know which ones of these I would rather consider to be a consumable part.

Hear hear. This is a fact we've accepted on automobiles for decades.  When was the last time you heard someone say "Oh, I wish my car had rim brakes that gradually ground my magnesium alloys rims down and I had to throw them away".

I rememer once I had to brake heavily on a tollway to avoid rear-ending a car in front of me that had stopped abuptly. I felt the ABS kicking in to prevent wheel lockup. I looked in the rear view mirror and noted the car behind me had done the same; he also must have had ABS. Behind him a large cloud of rubber smoke appeared along with the sound of screeching tyres followed by the lurch as his car was hit from behind by an old car with non-ABS brakes. My mind wandered back to a TV show where a guy who had restored an 1940's Ferrari and he'd done a period correct restoration.... except he'd installed disc brakes and ABS, because it was just too unsafe to drive a non ABS, hub braked car on modern roads.

wycombewheeler wrote:

trohos wrote:

 Who says that a wet rotor is better? Yet, who says that a hot rotor is better? Also, if the system isn't bleeding right?

For the rim wear,

rotor wear ( every company has individual system) + disc brake pads wear (every company has individual system) + bleeding + service. 

true but a rotor costs £25, while a pair of carbon wheels costs £600+ I know which ones of these I would rather consider to be a consumable part.

Also, braking is superior, particularly in the wet. Anyone who has seriously tried them can confirm that. Rotors only really get hot under a lot of repeating braking (e.g. twisty descent of a col). But rims also get hot under such conditions, to the point that tub glue can melt. I've had a tub deform on me in such conditions.

Yes, disk pads wear and rotors wear, as do rims and traditional pads. Not sure what the point is there. If you are talking about hydraulic system, then there is bleeding to initially do. But you can generally just leave it and it doesn't degrade like cables (though of course you get cable disk brake systems too). Again it's not much of a stumbling block so I'm not sure what the point being made is.

trohos wrote:

   Hey, to be honest. Can anyone tell me a main reason that the disc brakes are needed in road? I agree, that in mtb, is  the mud but in road? My opinion is that really the industry push the things in "strange ways". When we can't produce anymore innovation we name some already existing things innovation. And the story goes like this (i have take my lesson from the mtb). Disc brakes need new levers,new lightweight rotors, new more rigid hubs and new wheels, all this need some new spare parts and some new tools. Maybe the next step is a new size of wheels for better rolling, and if the weight increased for all those things we can innovate again a 1x12 or 13 who knows maybe 14 sytem with 5-7 tooth gradation. All those will be incompatible with the old systems... and all will be happy!

That's the logic of capitalism: invent things and then convince people they can't live without them. Always has been.

trohos wrote:

   Hey, to be honest. Can anyone tell me a main reason that the disc brakes are needed in road? I agree, that in mtb, is  the mud but in road? My opinion is that really the industry push the things in "strange ways". When we can't produce anymore innovation we name some already existing things innovation. And the story goes like this (i have take my lesson from the mtb). Disc brakes need new levers,new lightweight rotors, new more rigid hubs and new wheels, all this need some new spare parts and some new tools. Maybe the next step is a new size of wheels for better rolling, and if the weight increased for all those things we can innovate again a 1x12 or 13 who knows maybe 14 sytem with 5-7 tooth gradation. All those will be incompatible with the old systems... and all will be happy!

   Αlso relating to road races, the accidents are more brutal owing to greater speed and crowded, can anyone ensure that this is ok?

Nope, there never "needed" in road, its just better braking but necessary? nope . . .

Its like bike manufacturer come with new idea, new tech and new thing. They just want to sell them.

How could bike manufacturer will make profits if people already have decent bike and they no needs to buy a new one in perhaps 3-4 years? Attention! S brand released a new bike! its 10% better! wat? by 10% better, its maybe 10% of 1 sec = 0.1 sec faster then they put smart word on it "10% faster! whoo!!!", that's reality. Bike too perfect, there almost no weak point to improve, even if they manage to improve it, they do increases by decimal . . .

So what? create a new standard, forced it, convice people that "Pros use them and win, why wound't you" BS propaganda, brainwashed people.

Its like Steel vs Carbon, clipless vs flat pedals, shallow vs deep wheels debates . . they all want to sell a new thing.

New technogoly is good, its make improvement and we enjoy it.

But "needed" ? nope, its never be needs, just people want a new thing to play with, company to sell a new thing to make profits, that's all.

I am not against new thing, I actually always sought to buy new thing but in my eyes, this never necessary.

Altimis wrote:

trohos wrote:

   Hey, to be honest. Can anyone tell me a main reason that the disc brakes are needed in road? I agree, that in mtb, is  the mud but in road? My opinion is that really the industry push the things in "strange ways". When we can't produce anymore innovation we name some already existing things innovation. And the story goes like this (i have take my lesson from the mtb). Disc brakes need new levers,new lightweight rotors, new more rigid hubs and new wheels, all this need some new spare parts and some new tools. Maybe the next step is a new size of wheels for better rolling, and if the weight increased for all those things we can innovate again a 1x12 or 13 who knows maybe 14 sytem with 5-7 tooth gradation. All those will be incompatible with the old systems... and all will be happy!

   Αlso relating to road races, the accidents are more brutal owing to greater speed and crowded, can anyone ensure that this is ok?

Nope, there never "needed" in road, its just better braking but necessary? nope . . .

Its like bike manufacturer come with new idea, new tech and new thing. They just want to sell them.

How could bike manufacturer will make profits if people already have decent bike and they no needs to buy a new one in perhaps 3-4 years? Attention! S brand released a new bike! its 10% better! wat? by 10% better, its maybe 10% of 1 sec = 0.1 sec faster then they put smart word on it "10% faster! whoo!!!", that's reality. Bike too perfect, there almost no weak point to improve, even if they manage to improve it, they do increases by decimal . . .

So what? create a new standard, forced it, convice people that "Pros use them and win, why wound't you" BS propaganda, brainwashed people.

Its like Steel vs Carbon, clipless vs flat pedals, shallow vs deep wheels debates . . they all want to sell a new thing.

New technogoly is good, its make improvement and we enjoy it.

But "needed" ? nope, its never be needs, just people want a new thing to play with, company to sell a new thing to make profits, that's all.

I am not against new thing, I actually always sought to buy new thing but in my eyes, this never necessary.

Reviews don't help matters. They write about cycles as if they were motorcycles, almost as if you don't need to pedal such is the "response" etc. You'd also think bikes had fairings as well, such is the aero talk, most of which deals with going 40kph+ so that'll be me out unless I'm having a really good day.