Government will update law on mobile phone use at the wheel but won’t consider ban on hands-free devices

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

It matters when the damage is done and it's already too late?

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

The way you hedge about with caveats the accounts of those few handsfree calls that you have taken, I think it's clear you know the answer to your own question.

Watching the BBC video I linked to above, I was struck by how many things they said rang true, especially the things about how a distant party does not modulate their conversation in sympathy to the road conditions. You get the same effect with kids in the car, asking you awkward questions just as you come to a busy intersection. Adult passengers don't do that, but phone callers can't help it.

Also the bit about how some of us tend to visualise during a conversation, and again, if it is a caller asking you where did you hide the back door key etc, they don't ask at the right moment!

Sriracha wrote:

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

The way you hedge about with caveats the accounts of those few handsfree calls that you have taken, I think it's clear you know the answer to your own question. Watching the BBC video I linked to above, I was struck by how many things they said rang true, especially the things about how a distant party does not modulate their conversation in sympathy to the road conditions. You get the same effect with kids in the car, asking you awkward questions just as you come to a busy intersection. Adult passengers don't do that, but phone callers can't help it. Also the bit about how some of us tend to visualise during a conversation, and again, if it is a caller asking you where did you hide the back door key etc, they don't ask at the right moment!

The government are clearly saying there's nothing to consider hence why I asked if the evidence was water tight, how can they not consider it if the evidence is there, mind boggling!

My own personal experience says that in some circumstances and if not extended it could be okay but that's not enough for me to say it's okay for the majority of people in the majority of circumstances so given how distracted driving has done so much damage then a ban would be appropriate but as per handling the phone it's about enforcement being the limiting factor.

I rarely drive (SORN'd car 2 years ago) with only a 2 hour multi stop/drop for work once a week, we don't have hands free but we can be summerily dismissed if found using the phone whilst driving and the journeys are tracked so the calls can be checked against when the vehicle is moving.

I think a solution could be that a phone could deliver a simple message like 'there's an incoming call from xxxxx, if you wish to connect the call you must pull over and stop the vehicle' I don't think it's beyond the tech to have that built into every phone set up for hands free or vehicles that have a built in phone system.

Media devices like the big arse screens in most EVs now are just ludicrous, that has to be the next focus as people are simply touching/watching stuff all the time and manufacturers are being allowed to install this carp without any regulation/worry about the consequences.

The last 15 years I've been turning the radio off a lot when driving, even for journeys that were relatively simple like going up the A1 at 60 with very light traffic, no ped/cycle/equine interaction to consider, there's still a lot you should be doing and thinking about even for drives like that that you don't need 'entertaining' or a conversation to stop you from being bored.

Maybe they'll ban music in motorvehicles in the future given the headphone bans for cyclists that are creeping in, that would be very interesting how they explain that one isn't having a detrimental affect on harm and the other is.

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

The Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) has done a lot of research on the dangers of phone use at the wheel by drivers. The TRL is respected internationally as a leading player in the field incidentally. You asked about the difference between talking on the phone and to passengers, well there is a difference as highlighted by an in-depth study by the TRL. You can find a brief description of the report on the TRL's website, though I think you have to pay if you want the whole study.

Basically, what the report says is that when a driver is speaking with a passenger and requires mental processing to deal with a driving situation (overtaking, changing lanes, slowing down for a junction or whatever) the driver prioritises the driving function. Generally the driver will pause the conversation while thinking about how to deal with the driving task in hand.

However the TRL's research shows very conclusively that the flipside is true if a driver is useing a hands-free phone kit. In effect, if the person behind the wheel has to choose between a driving task and continuing the conversation, they tend to prioritise the conversation.

That's why hands-free kits are dangerous in short. Using a phone at the wheel (where hands free or not) increases the risk of a crash by a factor of four. Using a phone to access the internet or text or whatever increases the risk of a crash by a factor of 23. This also comes from TRL research.

You don't need to believe me. Look it up. 

OldRidgeback wrote:

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

The Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) has done a lot of research on the dangers of phone use at the wheel by drivers. The TRL is respected internationally as a leading player in the field incidentally. You asked about the difference between talking on the phone and to passengers, well there is a difference as highlighted by an in-depth study by the TRL. You can find a brief description of the report on the TRL's website, though I think you have to pay if you want the whole study.

Basically, what the report says is that when a driver is speaking with a passenger and requires mental processing to deal with a driving situation (overtaking, changing lanes, slowing down for a junction or whatever) the driver prioritises the driving function. Generally the driver will pause the conversation while thinking about how to deal with the driving task in hand.

However the TRL's research shows very conclusively that the flipside is true if a driver is useing a hands-free phone kit. In effect, if the person behind the wheel has to choose between a driving task and continuing the conversation, they tend to prioritise the conversation.

That's why hands-free kits are dangerous in short. Using a phone at the wheel (where hands free or not) increases the risk of a crash by a factor of four. Using a phone to access the internet or text or whatever increases the risk of a crash by a factor of 23. This also comes from TRL research.

You don't need to believe me. Look it up. 

 

That fits what one would intuitively suspect, just from imagining oneself in that position.  But I can't quite think _why_ it works out like that.  Something to do with knowing that if your conversational partner is right there and isn't going anywhere and can be assumed to be entirely aware of why you've stopped speaking, I guess.

  A phone conversation feels much more tenuous with a much weaker sense of connection to the other party, so perhaps psychologically you unconciously fear that if you don't hang on to them with your full attention they might go away?

OldRidgeback wrote:

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

ktache wrote:

As I understand it Sriracha, the French have banned hands free calls, pretty much unenforceable, but it does send a message.  But, it will be checked if there is a serious crash, especially a death.

That's where it matters.

Is the evidence water-tight that hands free calls are more distracting than say having a conversation with a passenger in the car?

I've had maybe a dozen 'hands free' calls ever, pressing a button (before voice command) was like pressing the button on the radio for me, not having to look just knowing where it is and not looking at the phone mid conversation. 

My calls were never extended (all on the motorway bar maybe a couple) and I guess my thinking/hazard perception/anticipation is much different to most other drivers, but driving around in built up areas I'd really not want to take a call even hands free for very long and certainly not one that involves having to really think too much as there's too much of a distraction to what you need to be focusing on.

I once drove through North London to a meeting in Peterborough, told the other managers I was giving a lift to not to talk at all (not just to me) whilst I got to Apex corner as I wanted to focus on getting through the traffic as quick as possible and with no mishaps. I did the drive along that road for best part of a decade and knew it extremely well but was conscious of the fact people idly chatting was doing my head in whilst trying to concentrate. Needless to say they all got the train back or got lifts back from others hahahahahaha.

The sooner things are tightened up and driving distracted with a phone/media device is treated like drink driving the better, given we know that distracted driving has same impact on human lives not to mention the financial costs from that I don't see why it shouldn't be treated in precisely the same way.

The Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) has done a lot of research on the dangers of phone use at the wheel by drivers. The TRL is respected internationally as a leading player in the field incidentally. You asked about the difference between talking on the phone and to passengers, well there is a difference as highlighted by an in-depth study by the TRL. You can find a brief description of the report on the TRL's website, though I think you have to pay if you want the whole study.

Basically, what the report says is that when a driver is speaking with a passenger and requires mental processing to deal with a driving situation (overtaking, changing lanes, slowing down for a junction or whatever) the driver prioritises the driving function. Generally the driver will pause the conversation while thinking about how to deal with the driving task in hand.

However the TRL's research shows very conclusively that the flipside is true if a driver is useing a hands-free phone kit. In effect, if the person behind the wheel has to choose between a driving task and continuing the conversation, they tend to prioritise the conversation.

That's why hands-free kits are dangerous in short. Using a phone at the wheel (where hands free or not) increases the risk of a crash by a factor of four. Using a phone to access the internet or text or whatever increases the risk of a crash by a factor of 23. This also comes from TRL research.

You don't need to believe me. Look it up. 

not sure why you thought you needed to end your comment in that way toward me when I merely asked the question and am obviously fully supportive of removing distracted driving from the landscape. However than you for the information.

burtthebike wrote:

Yet another knee jerk reaction to an isolated problem when what is needed is a complete, thorough review of road law.  Like the one they announced in 2014.

They're still working on it - they're just getting rid of all the dither and delay first.

danhopgood wrote:

Daily Mail is talking about smart camera technology being used for improved enforcement of the new rules.  Not sure I believe that ....

I think what'll happen is even if there is improved enforcement people will just use a cheap cradle off Eway and be off texting using that - which would be very difficult to prosecute with the new arrangements.  Even without phones there are so many flippin' distractions in modern cars it has to be adversely affecting safety.   Ban drinks holders!

Should be illegal for those Costa/Starbucks drive-thrus to serve drivers without passengers. Amazed by the risk assessment on those. Big business wins over safety yet again. Completely goes against the message about taking a break, tiredness kills.

danhopgood wrote:

Daily Mail is talking about smart camera technology being used for improved enforcement of the new rules.  Not sure I believe that ....

I think what'll happen is even if there is improved enforcement people will just use a cheap cradle off Eway and be off texting using that - which would be very difficult to prosecute with the new arrangements.  Even without phones there are so many flippin' distractions in modern cars it has to be adversely affecting safety.   Ban drinks holders!

I recently had a conversation with a retired traffic officer who told me that the technology to record mobile phone users with speed cameras exists, it is being tested currently. 

biker phil wrote:

danhopgood wrote:

Daily Mail is talking about smart camera technology being used for improved enforcement of the new rules.  Not sure I believe that ....

I think what'll happen is even if there is improved enforcement people will just use a cheap cradle off Eway and be off texting using that - which would be very difficult to prosecute with the new arrangements.  Even without phones there are so many flippin' distractions in modern cars it has to be adversely affecting safety.   Ban drinks holders!

I recently had a conversation with a retired traffic officer who told me that the technology to record mobile phone users with speed cameras exists, it is being tested currently. 

I'm curious as to how that's going to work. Up here I see plenty of drivers who have already shifted to holding the phone with their arm down, placed between the legs, so it can't be seen unless you're looking into the vehicle. Not to mention that the minute this becomes common knowledge, drivers are just going to rely on camera knowledge and warning software to avoid getting caught.

Luca Patrono wrote:

biker phil wrote:

danhopgood wrote:

Daily Mail is talking about smart camera technology being used for improved enforcement of the new rules.  Not sure I believe that ....

I think what'll happen is even if there is improved enforcement people will just use a cheap cradle off Eway and be off texting using that - which would be very difficult to prosecute with the new arrangements.  Even without phones there are so many flippin' distractions in modern cars it has to be adversely affecting safety.   Ban drinks holders!

I recently had a conversation with a retired traffic officer who told me that the technology to record mobile phone users with speed cameras exists, it is being tested currently. 

I'm curious as to how that's going to work. Up here I see plenty of drivers who have already shifted to holding the phone with their arm down, placed between the legs, so it can't be seen unless you're looking into the vehicle. Not to mention that the minute this becomes common knowledge, drivers are just going to rely on camera knowledge and warning software to avoid getting caught.

pretty sure the cameras that New South Wales (Aus') police trialled and are now installing detected the "groin stare" drivers 

"Mobile phone detection cameras to be rolled out across NSW roads by December"

"The mobile phone detection cameras were trialled at two permanent spots for six months.

.....The Government said 8.5 million cars were checked during the trial period and more than 100,000 drivers were found to be using their phones illegally"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-22/mobile-phone-detection-cameras-ro...

can't find article that describes how the technology was developed but believe it is sophisticated and AI based and not just single image.

ktache wrote:

Now all we need is some even slightly effective enforcement.

This is a civilised country - people are adults and will respect that using a phone whilst driving is dangerous.