Bowman Palace:R frame, fork & headset 2017

I know this is a little older thread, but I'll throw in my two cents (or pence) in here anyway.

I've been using both carbon fibre and alloy for a variety of purposes for over 30 years now and carbon fibre has come a long way, but, both materials still have their strengths and weaknesses...something that isn't going to change. When you consider steel and titanium as well, it can be even more challenging to pick a "best" for all purposes.

Carbon fibre can be made into whatever shape you want and is extremely resilient...but it's not tough at all. You can do a lot to carbon fibre and it will be fine, but you can also do very little to carbon fibre and it will be completely useless....it's an all or nothing type of material. I recently killed a fairly high end carbon bike frame with damage that would have left a small dent in an alloy frame. It's the same if you crash....the frame will be fine, or it won't....there's no middle ground with carbon.

Similarly, alloy is tough, but not as resilient. It will bend, deform and can readily be welded...but it's harder to customize the shape and you're going to pick up nicks, dents and other damage that a carbon frame wouldn't be susceptible to. You can also have fatigue issues or bends that take things out of alignment and cause other issues that you won't get with carbon.

Alloy can transmit a bit more road "buzz", which is why many alloy frames come with carbon forks and seatposts. On the flip side, carbon can absorb too much of the road noise (depending on how the frame and fork are laid up) and feel "dead."

At this price point, you have your choice of either a higher end alloy frame or a lower end carbon frame. I personally don't think you'll get a lower end carbon frame with the type of carbon, number of layers, orientation of layers and type of resin (i.e. overall lay up) to be comparable to a higher end alloy frame in terms of quality and longevity. Add $1000 /  £500, and I think things flip entirely and you get a much better carbon frame that most alloy frames cannot match.

Lordy! Now if that Palace R had disc brakes then I think Bowman could single handedly put a stop to n+1 forever! 

Good morning gents,

I am in a slight predicament with ordering the correct frame size of the Palace:R.

I'm 173cm with a 78cm inseam. Size guide points me towards the 54 frame, but I notice that the tester is 180cm and rode the 54 with a 130mm stem. I'm also wanting to run a longer stem, of 120mm so was swaying towards the 52 frame instead...

Can anybody who has or has rode one of these please give a bit of advice?

TIA.

What is a max fit tire ? On older version 28c what is hire? This frame can fit Continental Grand Prix 4000s2 in size 25c ???

I've bought a 54 carbon Viner mitus 0.6 from planet-x and I can say that the stifness sucks. At 74kg and  while standing/climbing I can clearly feel the BB flexing. Having this said.. It was cheap.. It costed me around 600€.. but if I knew in advance how it was I would have bought a canyon ultimate al which costs just a little bit more.

Until today I've had some bikes: Fuji team issue c7, canyon ultimate cf, canyon ultimate al, giant advanced sl, and the viner mitus.. and clearly the viner is the worse of all in terms os stiffness.

So for me, high end al is definitivly a go instead of entry level carbon.

Cheers,

Filipe Dias

Disc argument aside, i love a nice alu frame, i was fortunate to have owned/ridden two Principia's.

The first was the Rex e, almost horizontal top tube, oversized downtube, weighed 1385g in a 57, rocket ship, put your foot down with purpose from the first pedal stroke and it just took off. The Isaac forks were fantastic and only 365g.

Had mine with DA 9 speed/FRM CU2 cranks and a Brooks Pro. Edit: Just checked my data sheets and with DA7700, FSA K force light cranks, gigantex 38mm CF hoops, Velo ti saddle, shimano 105 pedals it came in at 7192.4g!

Second and because it was a bit too small I didn't hold onto it long was an RS6, even more rocket ship like than the Rex e but a bit more meat on the bone compared to the uber light RS6 pro which is even lighter than the Bowman here at 1120g for the 55.

In terms of how it feels for outright speed and agility I'd have either of my Principia's all day long over my KTM which is no slouch and a lovely thing to ride but the prinny's are a cut above.

I sold the RS6 to a chap about 6-7 years ago (For less than £200 IIRC) who was going to use it for crits, he'd had one before and reckoned it was superior to every middle range CF frame he'd ridden (& I got the sense he'd ridden a few) and many top end ones of the time for this type of racing.

I'm not so keen on the colour scheme pictured here, squared off tubes are a bit meh but a lightweight, tight and snappy frame like this is sure to bring a smile to anyone's face for short blasts and longer.

All fairly subjective isn't it?

There are probably very few bad frames out there and without riding a few different ones, one would be none the wiser as to what they preferred or thought was better.

Planet X and Ribble get good write ups in the magazine's and they'll be as cheap as the Bowman but so what??......

They're all up to it now. Ripping off the reference design of a modern alloy frame which has already been invented and perfected for almost like over ten years now. If they wish to show innvation (should they even care) then they'd come out with something fundamentally new. It isn't going to happen.

What do you mean by dry fibre??  Surely if there's no delamination and its just residue from resin, then there's no issue I would think?

I managed to get hold of a custom painted frame just as I moved from England to Germany so I could fit in with all the euro-fluro.

So far I have done about 800 miles around the German/Austrian Alps with a mixture of every type of road possible, from 10 mile alpine climbs to short group blasts after work or all day through the valleys with the girlfirend, and have loved every minute of it.

With an Ultegra/Dura Ace mix, Fizik R1 finishing kit/cockpit and some Fulcrum Zero Nites, its about 7.1kg, so pretty good with room for improvement.

It may be wheel related (was on Easton tubs previously), but it is harsher over long distances than previous carbon bikes (Bianchi Oltre), but like people have said, its designed as a point and shoot weapon, and the handling around the corners in the Alps is so much more fun.

PS. Long time lurker, first time poster.  If anyone is in the Munich/Ingolstadt/Bavaria area and fancies a ride then drop me a line

I have 4 buddies who sold their alloy bikes, because they simply could not tolerate riding it.. 

all of them switched to crabon.. none of them wants to go back. oh, and I have a a buddy who owns a bikeshop. the ratio between sold alloy and cf bikes is around 1 to 5.. 

i guess, people are just plain stupid to avoid alloy..

Crikey, all this talk of comfort, there will be talk of do they have mudguard mounts next

They're marketed as race bikes.  As (relatively) cheap race/fast bikes they fulfil that brief.  I can get comfort out of a carbon seat post, bigger tyres, different saddle if I want it when I'm racing.  So long as it holds the road well and isn't harsh to the point of being uncontrollable on rough surfaces - which I've yet to find a bike that would be that bad - then they more than do the job.

Racing crits for between 1/2 hour - 1 hour or even a road race of say ~60 miles, comfort doesn't come high up on my priority list and doubt other racers either.

And is the Aithein's weight limit really that low for anyone who races competitively??

I'd have no problems buying a high end alu frame in fact I'm looking for a caad12 or 10 frameset. I own a evo hi-mod and have ridden a caad12 on holiday and while it's not as good (in a very narrow window) as the hi-mod I still want to own one. Alot of the ones at a decent used price do have dings to the point I might go for a new frameset at the end of the season. might even go disc but I'd have to buy a new wheelsets which seems pointless when I have a few other sets about and I'd rather do a trainer ride than get wet anyway.

There are compromises to make aluminum this light. Namely durability/ strength:

The kinesis athein that everyone raves about has a pretty low rider weight limit. I wonder if this one does too..

Also whilst they may be stiffer than eqivilent carbon, they sound like they're less comfortable (reviews don't exactly praise them for comfort).

There are very few £700 carbon framesets that deliver anything like a race level performance available out there. 

However, that money will get you something really good made out of Alloy. 

Yes, it won't be as refined a ride as a top carbon frame, it probably won't last as long as a decent carbon frame, but then it costs a third of the price.

That is the joy, opportunity put forward by these frames.

A few guys in my club are now crit racing on alloy frames, despite owning top end carbon rigs. 

For them, the weight penalty is not as important around the local circuit as it is in a road race, therefore the affordability on the alloy frame is the way forward. i.e. if you stack it on a £600 frame as apposed to a £3k frame, its not the absolute end of the world. 

I had an Aithein and went to an entry level supersix evo and never looked back. Far more comfortable, felt stiffer out of the saddle, and the front end of the Aithein was as twitchy as anything I've ever ridden.

.

I had a Giant TCR SLR alloy, Kinesis Aithein and a not exactly budget carbon framed bike.  When I couldn't justify three race bikes, it was the carbon frame that I sold.  It just felt a bit dull, not as sharp or responsive when I stomped on the pedals in a race.  The difference was probably slight but I felt like I could tell a difference.

I now still have the Giant and another decent carbon frame and I like both.  Decent alu frames feel good under acceleration, no doubt some cheap carbon frames do too and some will feel softer, but I don't see how anyone can make such blanket statements that carbon is better regardless. 

And have you seen the weights for some budget carbon frames?  Well over 1kg and often heavier than these premium alu frames.  IIRC the cheapest Trek Madone (before the aero one came out) was 1350g frame weight!!

Hi Stu,

After riding a carbon TCR for the past 8 years I have just ordered a Palace:R and am very excited to change over to Alloy.  I have noticed you are 180cm and rode the 54" frame. I am 181cm and ordered the 56". I am a little worried I have ordered the wrong size. What would you suggest from your test? 

Thanks

Charlie

The problem is I have never had a problem stopping in the rain with good caliper rim brakes, so don't feel the need for disc brakes especially when in my opinion disc brakes are so god dam ugly.