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strange experience at chain retailer
My missus went into a branch of a large chain retailer in London (not evans, the other lot) to place a special order for a carbon fibre womens road handlebar from specialized.
They asked for full payment up front (£160), no problem she hands over the money but when she asks when will she able to collect the bars, they tell her about 3 weeks as its a special order.
They then say once they call her, she will have to book her bike into their workshop and they will charge £40 to fit the new bars, and another £16 for the bar tape.
When she asks why she cannot just take the bars, they give her some spiel about h&s telling her it has to be fitted by their mechanic.
She asks if her boyfriend (me) can fit them as he works as a bike mechanic servicing high end road bikes. She is told no, it has to be their workshop to ensure her safety.
She then asks which qualification their mechanics have and the reply is not currently. She then asks if they use torque wrenches and is told they don't currently have them in the workshop.
She asks them to give the money back. She goes to Condor who ring the distributor, 5 minutes later its ordered and should be in stock in a few days. No questions asked about fitting the bars.
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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23 comments
Think there's quite a large tolerance in terms of what you can tighten things up to. Obviously manufacturer recommendations are going to be in the safe zone, where there's both little chance of slippage and no chance at all of breakage. But if you've no idea what 5Nm feels like, a torque wrench is a good thing to use.
When you use a torque wrench, you need to know what lubrication was expected on the thread.
There is a lot to be said for experience, a torque wrench has its place, but blind use on everything will end up with some things being loose if too dry and too tight if lubed.
Absolute no brainier on carbon or thread inserts though!
Us time served guys who do a lot by feel have stripped, snapped and crushed things to develop and refine the art, we also know which tool to use, or which end of the Allen key for example.
Nothing beats experience for this!
I snapped off countless heads, and ripped out lots of threads as an apprentice, the one guy I was working with used to get me to drill and tap a piece of bar with the sole intention of me ruining bolt/thread so I knew exactly what to look out for in feel.
A torque wrench is a brilliant tool, in the right hands and looked after properly.
Ah yes... I'd forgotten this. Its amazing what level of 'feel' you develop from 25 years of over tightening, rounding off, and snapping bolts. I've done a lot over the years, bringing me to a place where I am confident and competent on all but the fanciest of installations.
I take it back. Get a torque wrench unless you are extremely confident in what you are doing.
Ah yes... I'd forgotten this. Its amazing what level of 'feel' you develop from 25 years of over tightening, rounding off, and snapping bolts. I've done a lot over the years, bringing me to a place where I am confident and competent on all but the fanciest of installations.
I take it back. Get a torque wrench unless you are extremely confident in what you are doing.
so if you do use a torque wrench do you get it regularly checked to make sure its calibrated properly?
i bet most if not all home mechanics who own one have never even thought about getting it calibrated and yet i bet they have dropped it more than once
everyone has common sense, varying degrees of it, basic common sense tells you not to cross the road when the traffic is heavy
basic common sense tells you stop tightening a bolt when you feel something isnt right
What if your using a torque wrench and something dosent quite feel right but your not upto the recommended torque, do you carry on or does common sense say to stop and see whats wrong?
Hey if you can get some vouchers just to use for clothing or even give them to a friend, why not at the very least make a complaint so they can hopefully look into it and improve their service
In aircraft maintenance lots of money is spent on tool/ equipment calibration, including torque wrenches! I'm sure you'll all agree it needs to be done. Anyway, back to the op, the chain store could not fit the part because it was handle bars, therefore, not the correct store. I'll get me coat....
@welsh boy
Good and valid point.
2 real world bike industry experiences:-
1 pro road team, will not name and shame. Finishing kit supplier puzzled by constant failures. Investigated and found mechanics not using torque wrenches but 'nipping up' bolts to check they were tight, stretching the fitting, nipping up again stretching further, etc. Team mechanics equipped with tools, very few if any failures.
Many 'pro' wheel builders. When DT and Park introduced spoke tension gauges, pro builders resisted claiming 'experience' overruled measurement tools. So DT and park investigated and found on average spoke tension was 31% out of range. Majority of pro builders now using these tools.
Experience does not, necessarily, replace proper tooling?
I wouldn't fully tighten any bolt without using torque wrenches whether at work or home - especially for carbon or light aluminium alloy components.
I've seen first hand too many carbon fibre handlebars, stems, seat posts and frame seat tubes broken by customers using multi tools instead of torque wrenches. I've had customers try to b.s. a warranty claim on broken carbon parts only to fess up once the distributor has inspected the part and deemed it to be 'overtightened'.
Yes of course bolts can be tightened by hand using 'experience' but if you actually check the bolt torque using a torque gauge tool you'd be surprised how far out many bolts will be.
Regarding my missus, she cannot be bothered to speak to the store or their head office because its just tiresome, and certainly would not want any vouchers or discounts to give them further business.
She has voted with her wallet and said she will be giving independent shops like Condor and Sigma her business, either though they are less convenient in terms of location.
I have seen what using a torque wrench can achieve though. It is a tool just like an allen key and with out common sense can cause as much if not more damage than not using one. Where I used to work I witnessed the aftermath of what happens when someone uses a torque wrench. They sheared the shank of a steel 2inch diameter bolt, they took a torque wrench, then used a 6ft scaffolding poll on the end for a bit more leverage, their defence, the wrench didn't click!
There is always the minor point, how many shops actually bother to ensure there torque wrenches are properly calibrated?
It's only as good a the spanner monkey swinging off the end of it!
I'd hazard a guess that not a lot of bike shops don't calibrate them, many many shop mechanics think they're engineers, yet really have very little formal engineering training, so understanding the importance of calibration by many of them might go amiss...
Lol@ carbon needs a torque wrench to be fitted
Ive built quite a few very high end carbon bikes over the last 5 years, all without the use of a torque wrench and not once had a part fail on me in 5000+ miles a year mileage
All you need is common sense and a feel for what your doing, nip up all the bolts evenly then give each bolt a 1/4 turn each and feel through the tool what is happening
How did we ever cope before manufactures told us how tight something had to be!!
Shops use torque wrenches for legal reasons just like when a tyre fitter refits your car wheels using a air gun, they then double check using a torque wrench just to make sure they haven't accidentally forgotten to tighten a bolt fully and stop them being sued if a wheel comes off
Personally i do not trust any bike shop to build/repair my bike
Why not put a complaint into their head office if your not happy with the way she was treated? they may offer you some vouchers
Please, "common sense". I cringe every time i see/hear that pathetic phrase. What is "common sense"? Something everyone has in equal amounts? As we learn and gain experience, what we consider to be "common sense" changes, so it is not common, it is experience and skill related. There is no such thing as common sense, that is why things like torque wrenches, rulers, thermometers, speed limits etc exist because we all have different levels of skill and experience.
Ha ha ha... torque wrenches! How do any bikes possibly run without a torque wrench!?
Whats that... just fine?
Caveat: From a legal stand point I appreciate that a professional mechanic will need to be seen to be using a torque wrench.
Carbon part? = Torque wrench. Unless you have deep pockets and a desire for pain.
Of course a bike will run just fine without a torque wrench. But a professional workshop without such a (relatively) basic tool doesn't instil a great deal of faith, especially when considering carbon as ajmarshall points out. If I were to pay a WS to fit a bike, I'd expect them to have the proper tools for the job, not just bodge or wing it.
Yup, it was c.surgery and not the concept shop
I'm sure someone who works in a Specialized 'concept' dealer will no doubt tell you this is policy.
They don't have york wrenches in the WS? Seriously?
I'm sure H&S would love to know how a bar is fitted properly without knowing the bolts haven't been over/undertightened.
Name & shame the chain & branch please! I'm sure their HQ would be interested.
If nothing else, so I can avoid...
£40 to fit a handlebar?
Who's the other lot?
I'm confused by this too. Is it Cyclesurgery?