How not to be a knob to female cyclists

I hate the kind of people #6 refers to... the boorish bloke who drones on and on telling you how you're doing it wrong when the entire subject is entirely subjective. It's bad enough bloke-on-bloke, let alone bloke-on-woman in the context of a patriarchal society and everyday sexism.

I think what's worse though is when I'm with my partner and one of these types comes over... and completely ignores her existence whilst plying me with unwanted advice. Although in some ways I think she gets off lightly in these cases...

rix wrote:

How about road.cc showing an example and create more women specific content (reviews, forum, news, advice etc.). Put those articles in a separate tab on your site, so that it is easy to find. Attract more female readers.

I've been hankering after wanting to suggest this for AGES, road.cc that would be awesome! (and if you need anyone to fill content I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in piping up for the cause).

On the subject of #6 (seems to be popular) - while advice is great, and cyclists who are more experienced should always be on hand to help someone who perhaps is a little newer - sometimes we (the ladies) get a little more than necessary. Sometimes it gets very much overly patronising, and comes across from some people as a "there there dear, this is how you do it, I know I can't expect you to understand" kind of way. Like, for example, on strava - completely random strangers commenting on my rides with unrealistic training advice (even though it's well known I use a coaching company, that's who I've been riding for for the last year), or comments like "did you know your max hr is too high?" - no, mate, I didn't notice. O.o

I've lost count of the amount of guys I know and don't know both in person and on social media making crude comments about lady cyclists, sometimes directly at me, often some of them being UNDER the age of 18 (and at times even 15) - it's disgusting. I'm not a girly girl and I'm all for a bit of below the belt banter but these are people who expect respect in the peloton, yet still deem it necessary to belittle and objectify female cyclists as if it were the 1950's.

I'm fed up with it, quite frankly. Vicky P did NOT help as it seems that since then guys have found it OK to comment about my boobs when pics of me racing are posted - not only does that make me feel both self conscious and angry but I can't even begin to imagine how distressing it is for my partner.

Don't even get me started on the idiot from [ateamwhowillnotbenamed] who kicked off on twitter yesterday about there being a ladies race at CDNW. >.<

It's not right, in fact its less than not right.

King of the Mountains wrote:

How about female races in fantasy cycling???

This year there is the 9 races of the Women's World Cup included, definitely a start

I do find this article a bit strange, in a way... Yes, when I overtake some men, they do overtake me back, but I find it funny & its usually the same type of person. The type of person who would be the same in any walk of life, on a bike or not.
[[[[[[ Look on the bright side. These blokes who "re-overtake" you---at least they're not sitting an inch off your rear wheel, staring at your...er...rear.
P.R.

notfastenough wrote:

Meanwhile, try searching twitter for the hashtag #sportswomen - some of the questions posted for a Q&A with gymnast Beth Tweddle will make your toes curl, and reminds me that ultimately, while some may disagree on the points above, we are all actually trying to be civilised human beings.

God some of that was horrendous. We were having a big twitter debate on it yesterday.

I think there's a very fine line between banter between mates (we all have a dig now and again) - out and out bullying and sexually harrassing a SPORTSperson, not even a celebrity for the sake of celebrity, like that is horrendous.

Someone in work today said "well is that not just freedom of speech?" - to which my answer was simply that these people would not say these things to these people in real life, these are men and women who in reality could be quite nice and normal, yet when presented with the shroud of the internet feel it necessary to objectify other human beings to the point that they can instill such bitter hatred towards them to the point of causing real distress and damage.

And it's not necessarily the point that women are the only subject of this sort of harassment, but the behavior directed towards women does seem to have some trend of deeper, more personal angling. I think the point is that while women are simply humans too and we should all just take it with a pinch of salt, we're built differently to men and our brains work in different ways. While we'd like to be as thick skinned as our male counterparts that sometimes just isn't possible, we can read deeply and sensitively into what could be meant as passing jest and it can really, really affect us.

This isn't meant to be a teeny tiny violin moment either. Say what you [not directed at anyone here] like behind peoples backs, that's your own prerogative but please take a moment to think about what you're about to say in public, and realise that there are always consequences to all actions.

I think the point on the knickers under shorts thing is that to a lady that is a VERY personal thing, while blokes are alright to lob it out for a waz at the side of the road, most women are incredibly sensitive to anything to do with the body and the idea that someone has actually spent time to look at their bottom to be able to make such a comment can come across in very much the wrong way. The idea of being looked at like that can make some girls feel immensely self conscious.

Banter/moral value - there IS a difference.

I'm not one for giving a toss but shits getting a bit much these days.

hairyairey wrote:

Hang on a second - is this meant to be an article telling men how to treat women on bicycles? Seems like people are treating as such even though it isn't said. If so, can we have an article about how women should treat men on bicycles? Let's start with not being unfriendly...

Here in the USA, I'll often wave Hello to other cyclists going the opposite way. If it is a woman riding solo, a large majority won't reciprocate and wave back, yet it changes to 50/50 possibility if they are riding with a man.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

This reminds me of a lady in our team a few years back. She had a great attitude to the bike, was a great sprinter, but there was simply no way to avoid that she was significantly overweight.
Overweight in the terms of athletic performance and not 'phwarrr' appeal.
The said lady asked her male team mates what she could do to improve her performance and all she was told was to work on her Sprint and FTP.
Which was sound enough advice, but the reality is that losing the 15kg she was carrying would have taken her to national level.
Now, the question is.... Was it right for men to avoid the elephant in the room , or indeed was it sexist to avoid the subject? I remember toying over what was the right course of action for some time, before saying nothing.
The lady ultimately became frustrated by her lack of progression and sacked the racing off.

That pretty much gets to the nub of the issue, from my perspective. I dont know the answer.

Sarah Barth wrote:

Also, without being a pretty top level coach I'm not sure you could have known for sure that losing 15kg would have 'taken her to national level'.

And your extreme level of fretting and concern about whether or not a woman who you clearly aren't actually that friendly with became a better cyclist is frankly baffling.

Well...
1) if she was already knocking on the door of national level, it wouldn't be hard to work out.

2) If he's involved with her (in a cycling sense), is it surprising he might think about how he could assist her? I wouldn't characterise that as displaying 'an extreme level of fretting and concern'.

mooleur wrote:

I think the point on the knickers under shorts thing is that to a lady that is a VERY personal thing, while blokes are alright to lob it out for a waz at the side of the road, most women are incredibly sensitive to anything to do with the body and the idea that someone has actually spent time to look at their bottom to be able to make such a comment can come across in very much the wrong way. The idea of being looked at like that can make some girls feel immensely self conscious.

Banter/moral value - there IS a difference.

Sure, but there is also a difference between well meant advice that is just a bit too personal vs harassment. The problem I have with these kinds of articles is that usually no distinction is made between the two, even though they are obviously quite different (and people guilty of the one do not deserve the same response as people guilty of the other).

I also take issue with your rather sexist stereotyping of men as insensitive boors vs women as dainty little flowers. There are plenty of men who are sensitive and women with a very thick skin. Ultimately there is a (culturally determined) level of sensitivity that is too high, where a person can't expect the world to adapt to that over-sensitivity. IMO, getting upset that people look at your bum on the bike is oversensitive, because it's just what is right on front of you in a peloton. It's natural for (tired) cyclists to focus on part of the rider in front of them. That can be a wheel, the rear brake, the bum or the shirt. That is not automatically sexual in nature.

It's not a guy's fault when his behavior is completely misinterpreted.

Aapje wrote:

Sure, but there is also a difference between well meant advice that is just a bit too personal vs harassment. The problem I have with these kinds of articles is that usually no distinction is made between the two, even though they are obviously quite different (and people guilty of the one do not deserve the same response as people guilty of the other).

I also take issue with your rather sexist stereotyping of men as insensitive boors vs women as dainty little flowers. There are plenty of men who are sensitive and women with a very thick skin. Ultimately there is a (culturally determined) level of sensitivity that is too high, where a person can't expect the world to adapt to that over-sensitivity. IMO, getting upset that people look at your bum on the bike is oversensitive, because it's just what is right on front of you in a peloton. It's natural for (tired) cyclists to focus on part of the rider in front of them. That can be a wheel, the rear brake, the bum or the shirt. That is not automatically sexual in nature.

It's not a guy's fault when his behavior is completely misinterpreted.

Whilst I agree that there should be some sort of distinction made in these articles between what is perceived as sexual harassment and innocent advice, my point is that an understanding and a level of empathy needs to be reached by all peers to adapt to accepting all genders into the peloton. Taking a step back before commenting on a girls underwear and processing the advice before giving it would be beneficial to all parties and stop this sort of misunderstanding from ever occurring. Your stance may be "well why should we have to" - we all make exceptions in life to accommodate for the different scenarios we encounter and accepting that males and females are different not just biologically but personally and intimately is not something that should be dismissed by equality. Put simply, yes - it sucks that these articles have to come to light, and yes we should all be able to just crack on and not be affected by these things but we all need to realise that is NOT the case and sometimes, unfortunately, this might mean eggshells - or just putting a bit of thought to a statement before giving it.

Could you please cite my alleged stereotyping of men? As I'd kept my statements fairly homogeneous in keeping with my standpoint on the subject.

As I've just said, we are ALL different - and to get along we need to interpret each and every personality, be it male or female, sensitive or not, in different ways.

Also as mentioned time and time again, I couldn't give a rats arse if the guy or girl behind me is looking at my arse as long as he doesn't clip my wheel and equally as long as he OR she doesn't comment on said arse afterward - which happens *too much* and this is what this article is pointing out. The fact is that there is unfortunate majority of males both within the peloton and outside of it (generally around social media) who feel it necessary to objectify sportswomen and in turn be outspoken on their misinformed and blatantly sexist opinions is damaging not just to those who are sensitive but to sport itself.

This is not a "sexist" opinionated biased view on the matter, this is fact, you only need to watch twitter for an hour to discover this.

mooleur wrote:

Your stance may be "well why should we have to" - we all make exceptions in life to accommodate for the different scenarios we encounter and accepting that males and females are different not just biologically but personally and intimately is not something that should be dismissed by equality.

I do think the guy's advice was improper, primarily because it was not necessarily applicable to a woman. But I simply disagree with the notion that if a woman gets mentally scarred by a simple, non-sexual comment like this, she is perfectly normal, while the man is a horrible person.

The advice by the guy contains no judgement of the woman's body. It's not even a case of leering, given the realities of cycling. So then the only thing to be upset about is the entire notion that a man looks at a woman's body, which is unavoidable in the absence of burka's or the separation of sexes. So a woman with that much sensitivity is simply broken and should work on her own issues. She can't expect men to cater to that silliness.

We don't live in the Victorian era and it's simply part of reality that men look at women's bodies and women look at men. If you can only function by pretending that this isn't true and get mental issues when that bubble is burst, then the issue is yours. The world isn't going to adapt to the most prudish (and/or insane).

mooleur wrote:

Could you please cite my alleged stereotyping of men? As I'd kept my statements fairly homogeneous in keeping with my standpoint on the subject.

"we're built differently to men and our brains work in different ways. While we'd like to be as thick skinned as our male counterparts that sometimes just isn't possible, we can read deeply and sensitively into what could be meant as passing jest and it can really, really affect us."

This seems pretty clear stereotyping to me. You claim that men are not as sensitive, while women are. It's a classic stereotype and has been a key argument in the past when disallowing rights to women (because they 'can't handle X, due to their emotions'). Frankly, it's a monumentally dumb argument to make if you stand for equality.

mooleur wrote:

As I've just said, we are ALL different - and to get along we need to interpret each and every personality, be it male or female, sensitive or not, in different ways.

And now you make a completely different statement than the one I quoted. When you make conflicting statements, it is rather impossible for me to argue. So just let me state my position:

- There are comments that are clearly harassing, mean, etc. These are wrong and should be condemned.
- There are comments that are ill-advised, but made with good intent (or the intent is ambiguous). These should be treated with a gentle rebuke, assuming the best intent possible considering the comment. If someone overreacts to such a comment, that deserves a rebuke in itself.
- There are comments that are unwanted, but not wrong (in that context). An example is a come-on in a club by a person you are not attracted to. Handle it quickly and gently and move on.
- Men and women deserve the same respect. That goes both ways. No comments about women's bodies when inappropriate, but also no mean comments at men that they 'should take as a man.'

fancynancy wrote:

I do find this article a bit strange, in a way that it seems to have highlighted an issue, that to me, is not there. Yes, when I overtake some men, they do overtake me back, but I find it funny & its usually the same type of person. The type of person who would be the same in any walk of life, on a bike or not.

[[[[[ Well, fancynancy, would most women rather have these geezers (a) "re-overtaking" them---or (b) riding behind them for a mile? If I were female, and sensitive, I think I know which option I'd prefer. But as a chap, I also get "re-overtaken" by other chaps....and the older I get, the more I shrug...
P.R.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

This reminds me of a lady in our team a few years back. She had a great attitude to the bike, was a great sprinter, but there was simply no way to avoid that she was significantly overweight.
Overweight in the terms of athletic performance and not 'phwarrr' appeal.
The said lady asked her male team mates what she could do to improve her performance and all she was told was to work on her Sprint and FTP.
Which was sound enough advice, but the reality is that losing the 15kg she was carrying would have taken her to national level.
Now, the question is.... Was it right for men to avoid the elephant in the room

Yes, IMO. Yes, she asked for advice but there are still boundaries concerning how personal that advice should be.

a) She is not a close friend,

b) The advice would be potentially humiliating given in front of a group of people who are not close friends.

c) She probably isn't stupid and could work out for herself that losing excess fat would improve her athletic ability and efficiency.

So rather than state the obvious, I would have stuck to giving advice about technical details that she might be unaware of.

Quote:

, or indeed was it sexist to avoid the subject?

In my opinion, no. It would have been just as rude and patronising to tell an unknown lad that he would go faster if he lost 15kg, for the same three reasons above. You know he is fat. He knows he is fat and unless he is really stupid, he knows that he will go faster and have more stamina if he lost the excess weight.

If you were really determined to say something, maybe a general comment about how fitting lighter components to the bike could make a massive difference to performance? Then it is up to him/her if the penny drops and thinks about how personal weight loss might help too?

"I've never met an overweight person who wasn't aware they were overweight. Male or female, you
pointing out their fatness makes you a bit of a knob, I'm afraid. "

Making weight a taboo subject is such a bad idea, it only makes it harder for anyone to talk to people with weight issues - some of whom may want to talk about it, or it may very much be to their benefit to talk about it. It should not be taboo.

I'm surprised no one commented on the woman in the photo. Another unwritten rule for roadies, no arm warmers with sleeveless jerseys.

Dutchie wrote:

We had a young lady joining our club last year and after a few runs i did have to say to her: "I don't want to get too personal, but do you know you're not supposed to wear anything under your bibshorts?" Had the same conversation with a new guy in the club just weeks later, which somehow was a lot easier

To me that would too personal to approach an unknown young lady. That is definitely something left for another woman to tell her the "unwritten rules" about cycling. I would imagine if she continues to ride with the same group , then you just became "that creepy guy" who was checking out her underwear situation.

Dutchie wrote:

We had a young lady joining our club last year and after a few runs i did have to say to her: "I don't want to get too personal, but do you know you're not supposed to wear anything under your bibshorts?" Had the same conversation with a new guy in the club just weeks later, which somehow was a lot easier

I still can't believe that in 2014 we're still having debates like this. However, it's posts like the one quoted above that makes articles like this necessary. I'm all for equality but the fact of the matter is we're all different. Men have different reasons to women for wanting to ride. Men have different "equipment needs" to women when it comes to bike, saddle and clothing. Forgive me because I don't want to be "personal" or anything but this might be news to you but whilst it's virtually unheard of for a man to wear anything under his bibshorts, most women do wear underwear underneath, especially at certain times of the month . Surprisingly, our anatomy is different; lady bits and chamois don't tend to make a great combination and lots of women prefer to keep their underwear on. Not that the undergarments of your new lady cycling buddy are any of your business mind you, all your "personal" advice probably did was make her think you were a complete moron. Either that or you've now given the wrong advice to someone. Hopefully it's just the former and she's not now riding around with chaffed nether regions because some bloke at the club told her she was wearing the wrong gear. Now, I appreciate it won't have occurred to you that there was a good reason why she might be wearing underwear. Likewise, I do know a couple of lady cyclists who go commando and are quite happy. Like most things, it's personal preference. The issue for me is that you even thought it was appropriate to say that to a lady joining your group. If she wants to ride in jogging bottoms who are you to comment? It wouldn't be my personal preference but if she's keeping up and her bottoms aren't getting stuck in her chain then fine. If your group is anything like ours, there aren't many women who join and those that do are usually put off the banter after a couple of weeks or can't keep up, or both. A good cycling group should do nothing but be polite and welcoming. I've seen plenty of men riding along looking like complete idiots. Anything from hairy legs that resemble my carpet after my pet Labrador has had a good old scratch rolling up to the start line of a road race (which I personally don't see what all the fuss was about but I'm told by my fellow male cyclists arguably comes under the same category as riding with underwear under your bibs), to plenty of mechanical faux pas like riding along with their brakes stuck on, and even a bloke who had his kit on inside out. Not to mention the countless 'monkey on stick' riding styles where the operative has clearly purchased a bike two sizes too small because it was in the sales or had a nice name on it. Your new lady cyclist might not have your idea of the correct etiquette when it comes to undergarments but at least she had it all on the right way round. All of these things have made me chuckle to myself or have a good old giggle with my husband on the way home, but I'd never embarrass one of these fellow cyclists by commenting so openly on it, certainly not in front of others.
I don't doubt that after I post this the anti-feminist brigade will be out in force and I'll be down as a man hater or even this post will be removed for being too much. Actually, it has nothing to do with being a feminist, it's not even got much to do with being a woman or indeed a man. It has to do with being polite. Next time you or any one else on this forum thinks they might like to make a comment or give someone "advice", have a think, is this polite?
Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I'm a cyclist. Yes, I've had awful comments made to me both out on the bike and at work when arriving in my cycling gear. And, yes, I think that more needs to be done to encourage women to get out on their bikes at all - either together or mixed groups, it doesn't matter. However, I guarantee that if people continue to make comments like some people make on this forum, not just those derogatory comments about women, then this website is doing nothing to encourage anyone into the sport, let alone women. And, just for the record, next time you see a woman wearing underwear under her bibs, just leave her to it!

excellent points made, certainly gives food for thought...well said.
MB