Two week Welsh Police campaign sees 1,000 drivers fined for using phone at wheel

sim1515 wrote:

That's the thing, it doesn't seem that the research done on the comparisons hasn't yielded any actual evidence, there are opinions on the cognitive loads of talking to someone who isn't there but no evidence as yet.

Not quite true - the research has yielded evidence (which shows that "hands free" conversations *are* distracting to an extent that affects hazard perception &c).

What (may) not be there is evidence about how distracting your other examples may be in comparison, and a mechanism by which the distraction is happening/differing.

(Sorry - quick edit - on looking, I think the balance of evidence is slightly in favour of passenger conversations being less distracting (more studies show this). Meta analysis (studies of studies) isn't easy to find, but suggests "as distracting". However, your hands free mobile use is more likely than not to affect your driving adversely, regardless of how other things may affect it.)

Quote:

And for you to say that none of those is as distracting is obviously your opinion (which you're entitled to) but if there are no studies, it can't be based on fact.

So your point is that hands free *is* affecting hazard perception &c significantly, but so (possibly) are other things (some of which the Highway Code advises people not to do too) to a possibly equal degree?

sim1515 wrote:

I've had a quick look an there are people that argue that a passenger is safer as they can point out hazards and there doesn't seem to be much actual proof out there. There is a study by Michigan Uni that studied 36 drivers over 80,000 miles which found that divers were as distracted by passengers as when they were on a phone.

So we shouldn't be doing either, in that case?

John_the_Monkey wrote:

sim1515 wrote:

I've had a quick look an there are people that argue that a passenger is safer as they can point out hazards and there doesn't seem to be much actual proof out there. There is a study by Michigan Uni that studied 36 drivers over 80,000 miles which found that divers were as distracted by passengers as when they were on a phone.

So we shouldn't be doing either, in that case?

True, also given all my other given distractions, maybe we should jut drive everywhere in silence, although some people will probably find that distracting too

sim1515 wrote:

I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car, how are the two actually different (apart from her not being there)?

Another one who likes to overestimate his multitasking skills, you sound like the drink-driver who thinks they're totally in control of their vehicle... before they go through a hedge.

You needn't concern yourself with the facts then (more here, found in seconds).

It's a phone, not a pacemaker. Turn it off.

Simon E wrote:

sim1515 wrote:

I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car, how are the two actually different (apart from her not being there)?

Another one who likes to overestimate his multitasking skills, you sound like the drink-driver who thinks they're totally in control of their vehicle... before they go through a hedge.

You needn't concern yourself with the facts then (more here, found in seconds).

It's a phone, not a pacemaker. Turn it off.

Firstly who are you to judge my multitasking skills, you don't even know me so I don't appreciate the personal attack.

Secondly I normally concern myself with the law, whilst it's legal, I'm allowed to do it.

Thirdly, my point was I couldn't see the difference with talking on hands free an talking to a passenger, neither or your links contained any comparison between the two.

Lastly, again who are you to tell me to turn my phone off, your tone leaves a lot to be desired.

sim1515 wrote:

who are you to tell me to turn my phone off, your tone leaves a lot to be desired.

It's an opinion - like yours. Last time I looked I was allowed to have one too. I have no legal power to force you to turn the stupid thing off while doing something more important, which is a shame since you're obviously determined to carry on taking that risk despite the evidence. Thanks a bundle.

Simon E wrote:

sim1515 wrote:

who are you to tell me to turn my phone off, your tone leaves a lot to be desired.

It's an opinion - like yours. Last time I looked I was allowed to have one too. I have no legal power to force you to turn the stupid thing off while doing something more important, which is a shame since you're obviously determined to carry on taking that risk despite the evidence. Thanks a bundle.

You amuse me, "Turn it off" isn't an opinion, it's an order, I probably would have been ok with a request but that isn't one. I'll stop talking on my phone when everyone else stops talking to their passengers (or it becomes illegal). You're very welcome.

sim1515 wrote:

That's purely my opinion, I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car, how are the two actually different (apart from her not being there)?

The researchers suggest that the key is in the cognitive workload involved - with a passenger in the car, that's lessened. Another theory suggests that the passenger in the vehicle reacts to road traffic conditions too, which draws the driver's attention to them, iirc. The difference *is* that she's not there.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course, but the research done so far on the subject doesn't back it up. The current guidance to UK drivers advises you not to do what you're doing too.

Quote:

There are also quite a few other things likely to distract you from the road, like lighting a cigarette, tuning your radio, talking to passengers but they're acceptable.

None are as distracting as holding a conversation with someone who isn't present, as far as I know. There's been comparative research on "hands free" conversation vs conversation with someone in the car - I can't remember any specific comparison with your other examples.

Again, the current Highway Code;

"148
Safe driving and riding needs concentration. Avoid distractions when driving or riding such as;

* loud music (this may mask other sounds)
* trying to read maps
* inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio
* arguing with your passengers or other road users
* eating and drinking
* smoking"

So your examples are addressed as things drivers shouldn't be doing either, for the most part.

I don't think it's in the current version, but I'm sure I read some guidance (possibly in an old edition of "Roadcraft") advising drivers not to light a pipe while driving

"I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car"

What you can see is irrelevant; studies show it is little different from a handset.

But anyway, talking on the phone is not the same as talking to someone who is present. Just off the top of my head;

They are not in the same place, they do not see or understand the same environment that you do, cannot recognise any potential hazards or moments requiring your extreme concentration; they do not have the benefit of your body language to assess or be alerted to a situation arising.
Conversing with somebody who is not present partly takes your mind away from the immediate situation.

matthewuniverse wrote:

"I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car"

What you can see is irrelevant; studies show it is little different from a handset.

I work in the mobile industry, and pay a fair bit of attention to this sort of thing. What the research shows is that it's not a dexterity issue (or one-armed people wouldn't be allowed to drive). And many cars these days are autos anyway. What it is is as others have said, a cognitive load issue. You can't visualise/process a conversation and road hazards at the same time. Being hands-free makes no difference, and here's why: people in the car with you you can choose to ignore for a few seconds, and they naturally fall quiet as they can see you are doing something tricky like at a junction, changing lanes etc. they generally help to look as well, it's instinctive adult also-a-driver-too behaviour. If they are on the other end of a phone they cannot see what you are having to deal with, and just blather on, while you feel obliged to pay attention. That's the major difference.

I fully expect insurance companies to lead here, with no insurance for people found to be talking on mobiles *hands-free or not* in the event of a crash. That, more than any threat of a fine, might put an end to it.

Also we need much wider awareness of what 3 or 6 points on your licence means: a massive hike in your insurance premiums for the next 3 or 5 years. Several thousands of quid, typically.

KiwiMike wrote:

matthewuniverse wrote:

"I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car"

What you can see is irrelevant; studies show it is little different from a handset.

I work in the mobile industry, and pay a fair bit of attention to this sort of thing. What the research shows is that it's not a dexterity issue (or one-armed people wouldn't be allowed to drive). And many cars these days are autos anyway. What it is is as others have said, a cognitive load issue. You can't visualise/process a conversation and road hazards at the same time. Being hands-free makes no difference, and here's why: people in the car with you you can choose to ignore for a few seconds, and they naturally fall quiet as they can see you are doing something tricky like at a junction, changing lanes etc. they generally help to look as well, it's instinctive adult also-a-driver-too behaviour. If they are on the other end of a phone they cannot see what you are having to deal with, and just blather on, while you feel obliged to pay attention. That's the major difference.

I've read some of those articles showing your "major difference" but as far as I can see there is no actual evidence to back this up, there is no study for example that shows that people are less likely to crash when talking to passengers in their car than on hands free in the same conditions, the only study I found on it was the one by Michigan University which concluded that they probably had the same effect. The cognitive load theory is backed up by playing a voice recording of someone talking to them (in one of the studies on the Guardian website last year) but it just states that this has a negative effect on driving which I'll accept as a fact. It does then try to differentiate hands free talking from talking to passengers by giving what seem like the researchers opinion, stating the same thing stuff as you but without any actual evidence to back it up. As I stated earlier, I could also make an argument for it actually being the other way round, but (as I also stated) it's just my opinion.

I think that what Edgeley says is true, it's no illegal and would be very hard to enforce so we should just be glad they're pro-actively trying to stop people breaking the law and helping make the roads a little safer!

matthewuniverse wrote:

"I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car"

What you can see is irrelevant; studies show it is little different from a handset.

But anyway, talking on the phone is not the same as talking to someone who is present. Just off the top of my head;

They are not in the same place, they do not see or understand the same environment that you do, cannot recognise any potential hazards or moments requiring your extreme concentration; they do not have the benefit of your body language to assess or be alerted to a situation arising.
Conversing with somebody who is not present partly takes your mind away from the immediate situation.

Firstly, what I can see is very relevant as it's my choice at the moment whether to use the hands free or not.

Secondly the studies you refer to only show the comparison between talking on a phone or using hands free, the sentence of mine that you quoted is clearly comparing talking on hands free to talking to another person in the car.

So, I've reviewed your differences and agree that those are true but have thought up some more:
If you are a cab driver or a parent with passengers in the back, they may not recognise any potential road hazards and/or may not inform you of them.
If you are aware of their body language, it implies that you are paying visual attention to them and not the road, especially if they are in the back of the car.
There is nothing but you in the car to take your eyes off the road, no one changing radio stations/cds, moving around in the back etc.

In those situations, being on hands free would be safer than talking to the passenger in my opinion.

sim1515 wrote:

matthewuniverse wrote:

"I can't see a noticeable difference in talking on my Bluetooth hands free to my wife or talking to her if she was in the car"

What you can see is irrelevant; studies show it is little different from a handset.

But anyway, talking on the phone is not the same as talking to someone who is present. Just off the top of my head;

They are not in the same place, they do not see or understand the same environment that you do, cannot recognise any potential hazards or moments requiring your extreme concentration; they do not have the benefit of your body language to assess or be alerted to a situation arising.
Conversing with somebody who is not present partly takes your mind away from the immediate situation.

Firstly, what I can see is very relevant as it's my choice at the moment whether to use the hands free or not.

Secondly the studies you refer to only show the comparison between talking on a phone or using hands free, the sentence of mine that you quoted is clearly comparing talking on hands free to talking to another person in the car.

So, I've reviewed your differences and agree that those are true but have thought up some more:
If you are a cab driver or a parent with passengers in the back, they may not recognise any potential road hazards and/or may not inform you of them.
If you are aware of their body language, it implies that you are paying visual attention to them and not the road, especially if they are in the back of the car.
There is nothing but you in the car to take your eyes off the road, no one changing radio stations/cds, moving around in the back etc.

In those situations, being on hands free would be safer than talking to the passenger in my opinion.

It's simple really, you phone before you make your journey. Not difficult really but then again you seem to be the type of individual who will never listen to any body else and so will come up with a very poor argument as to why you should use a hands free kit. As several people have said if in a car talking to passengers they can see what you can hazards etc. also you can ask them to be quiet if required.
Using hands free is no different to actually putting a handset against your ear with the exception of the physicality of the handset. How many people actually keep both hands on the wheel?
I have picked up the pieces of RTC's caused by people on hands free and mobile but never really by talking to passengers. Another point to note is you referred in your original post that it in your mind seemed ok to look in your mirror to talk to passengers in the rear. Are you seriously saying that its ok to take your eyes off the road for any period of time? I bet you spend longer looking in the mirror than you think. Before I get an arsey reply think of this, how far have you travelled at 70mph in 1second? As I am pretty sure if looking in the mirror talking to the rear will take longer than a second.
It's called driving without due care and attention for a reason.

cavmem1 wrote:

It's simple really, you phone before you make your journey. Not difficult really but then again you seem to be the type of individual who will never listen to any body else and so will come up with a very poor argument as to why you should use a hands free kit. As several people have said if in a car talking to passengers they can see what you can hazards etc. also you can ask them to be quiet if required. Using hands free is no different to actually putting a handset against your ear with the exception of the physicality of the handset. How many people actually keep both hands on the wheel?

It's also quite simple really that it's legal to use hands free on your journey, as I said, for me it is a good use of time. Another very personal attack on my [good] name, so do you know me as well? I doubt it. I don't need an argument as to why I should use a hands free kit, I have the law, you need a compelling argument for me not to use it, and it's not me you should try and convince, it's the government so they can create legislation to prevent me. I can see that others have given their opinion on why talking to passengers is safer than the hands free, but they are all OPINIONS, no one has offered any proof. If any proof exists, I'm sure a law will be passed (like the law preventing you from using a handset) and I'll stop.

cavmem1 wrote:

I have picked up the pieces of RTC's caused by people on hands free and mobile but never really by talking to passengers.

How do you know you've never encountered an RTC when someone has been talking to a passenger? It's probably not been noted as the cause (when someone talking on the phone has been) but to say that you've never seen one when someone's been talking to a passenger prior to the accident is fairly had to believe. Have their been other causes, such as playing with the radio, reaching for a lighter or something else or have they just been driver error or using a mobile?

cavmem1 wrote:

Another point to note is you referred in your original post that it in your mind seemed ok to look in your mirror to talk to passengers in the rear. Are you seriously saying that its ok to take your eyes off the road for any period of time? I bet you spend longer looking in the mirror than you think. Before I get an arsey reply think of this, how far have you travelled at 70mph in 1second? As I am pretty sure if looking in the mirror talking to the rear will take longer than a second.
It's called driving without due care and attention for a reason.

Firstly I'm not saying I look in the mirror to talk to passengers in the rear, but I have experienced taxi drivers looking at me in their mirror when they're talking to me, have you not?
Secondly, what people have been saying is that talking to someone on the phone is more dangerous as you are having to imagine their facial expressions, body language, reactions to your words. If you're saying that you never look in the mirror, your mind is experiencing the same extra cognitive load that you would get if you're using hands free. Plus, they're in the back so presumably can't see the road as well as you so wouldn't be able to point out hazards either. What's more plausible is that people's eyes flick to see the rear passenger's face for a split second or so, so not a "period of time". I'm not saying that I drive down the road looking in my mirror while talking, but my eyes probably do shift to the mirror every once in a while sub-consciously.
Last, yes, I do look in my mirrors when on the motorway, do you not? I have a quick look so I know pretty much what's behind as well as in front, it makes overtaking much easier! So, again, while I don't drive down the motorway looking in my mirror, I do check my mirrors for a split second or so so I know my surroundings, I'd not consider that driving without due car and attention.
I don't regard this as an arsey reply by the way, I hope you don't either. I've certainly been less personal than you were!

sim1515 wrote:

I disagree though with the hands free points, driving whilst talking on hands free or Bluetooth is essentially the same as talking to your passenger ad

In what sense?

Most studies (last time I looked, the only contradictory one was commissioned by a headset manufacturer) show that use of hands free technology affects hazard perception & reaction times more than talking to an in-car passenger.

There's little difference between handheld and hands free in that respect, if I remember the results correctly.

The current Highway Code acknowledges this;

"Using hands-free equipment is also likely to distract your attention from the road. It is far safer not to use any telephone while you are driving or riding - find a safe place to stop first or use the voicemail facility and listen to messages later." (Rule 149)

Personally, I don't take, or make calls whilst driving (or cycling, for that matter).